I have a bachelor's in Physics from University of Wisconsin, a master's in civil (structural) from Marquette University, and 5 years work experience. Illinois said they would consider a bachelor's in civil from Marquette to be worth (4) years of experience, but they said a master's in civil (structural) from Marquette is worth nothing. Does anyone have any idea how to appeal the committee's decision? Illinois told me their is no way to appeal, but I would like to spend some time and resources fighting. Any tips anyone has for me would be greatly appreciated.
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Illinois won't accept my education toward my SE application 3
- Thread starter Mike Mike
- Start date
That's probably because only a minority takes it seriously.
TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
JedClampett
Structural
The pdh requirement is another decision point for retirees to keep their license active.
[ul]Do you want to pay the money?
Do you want to keep up pdhs?[/ul]
Whether or not that's a good thing is for others to discuss.
[ul]Do you want to pay the money?
Do you want to keep up pdhs?[/ul]
Whether or not that's a good thing is for others to discuss.
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1
- #25
bridgebuster
Active member
I guess Illinois is a tough place. About 40 years ago one of my coworkers complained that IL wouldn’t give him an SE by reciprocity in the 50’s even though he had a N.Y. P.E.
Dik - I agree with your thoughts about the effectiveness of PDH requirements. Although I am a PDH junkie.
Dik - I agree with your thoughts about the effectiveness of PDH requirements. Although I am a PDH junkie.
Yes. Illinois is very rigid on licensing. It allows PE-PE through Reciprocity, with States it has agreement, only. Since IL does not honor SE from other states, so it does not allow out of state SE to IL PE/SE through reciprocity. IL PE and SE can only obtained through state sponsored examination. I am not aware whether it had agreement with NY or not in the 50s, the rule might have changed/relaxed.
retired13 said:
I don't believe this is correct. I got my SE in another state and got it transferred to IL 3-4 years ago. Did not have to take any examinations. With the SE exam nationwide now, just the NCEES SE exam is all you need from a testing standpoint.
Had education from UIllinois so that was easy. Main hangup was clarifying how my supervisor had actually supervised me when his address was thousands of miles away from mine (I had moved). Other than that, pretty painless. Took several months just because they move slow and one of my letters apparently got lost in the mail somewhere. Got delivery confirmation the second time around and no issues.
NOLAscience
Structural
PDH should be required for the first 20 years of practice. After that, any additional learning should be left to the professional judgment of the engineer. Most engineers are doing the same thing over and over by the time they are 20-25 years post-bachelors.
- Thread starter
- #33
Thanks for all your thoughts everyone. Does anyone have an idea of which SE states are generally considered less finicky? Wisconsin PE is very similar to Illinois SE in education and work requirements, but Wisconsin had no problem granting me my PE license with my education. I'm looking at Hawaii's requirements now, and it's not clear if my background is sufficient, but it at least seems to recognize Master's degrees.
Ron247, Illinois accepts an ABET accredited bachelor's degree as 4 years experience. They gave me 0 years experience for my bachelor's in Physics with my master's in Civil (structural). Illinois said I can have my license when I get 8 years experience.
retired13, I already passed the SE exam. I took it in Wisconsin. How will applying for the EIT exam help fulfill Illinois education/experience requirements? I will ask Illinois if this is a route.
Ron247, Illinois accepts an ABET accredited bachelor's degree as 4 years experience. They gave me 0 years experience for my bachelor's in Physics with my master's in Civil (structural). Illinois said I can have my license when I get 8 years experience.
retired13, I already passed the SE exam. I took it in Wisconsin. How will applying for the EIT exam help fulfill Illinois education/experience requirements? I will ask Illinois if this is a route.
Mike,
If you have passed WI exam, try licensure through comity or reciprocity for IL PE, then take SE exam in Illinois. I believe WI does not have separate license for PE and SE, as both candidates take the same exam for the first half, then choice specialty for the second part (a one day event as most of the states). However, the IL SE exam is a two days event, the first day tests structural engineering fundamentals, the second day is structural design, including seismic in the afternoon. Before retiring, I knew only 3 states had separate PE and SE license - NY, CA and IL. Things might have changed thereafter then.
If you have passed WI exam, try licensure through comity or reciprocity for IL PE, then take SE exam in Illinois. I believe WI does not have separate license for PE and SE, as both candidates take the same exam for the first half, then choice specialty for the second part (a one day event as most of the states). However, the IL SE exam is a two days event, the first day tests structural engineering fundamentals, the second day is structural design, including seismic in the afternoon. Before retiring, I knew only 3 states had separate PE and SE license - NY, CA and IL. Things might have changed thereafter then.
- Thread starter
- #35
retired13,
Yes, structural engineers in Wisconsin are only required to pass the PE exam, which tests breadth of all civil engineering topics in the morning, and only structural topics in the afternoon.
Yes, structural engineers in Illinois are required to pass the SE exam. The first morning is "vertical" "breadth". The first afternoon is "vertical" "depth". The second morning is "lateral" "breadth". The second afternoon is "lateral" "depth". Seismic is rampant the whole second day. I believe things have changed quite a bit with quite a few states now offering the SE designation. I started the attached map myself (not sure if the attachment will work). Orange states offer it. Blue states don't. If anyone knows of a more complete list or map let me know.
Yes, structural engineers in Wisconsin are only required to pass the PE exam, which tests breadth of all civil engineering topics in the morning, and only structural topics in the afternoon.
Yes, structural engineers in Illinois are required to pass the SE exam. The first morning is "vertical" "breadth". The first afternoon is "vertical" "depth". The second morning is "lateral" "breadth". The second afternoon is "lateral" "depth". Seismic is rampant the whole second day. I believe things have changed quite a bit with quite a few states now offering the SE designation. I started the attached map myself (not sure if the attachment will work). Orange states offer it. Blue states don't. If anyone knows of a more complete list or map let me know.
Lomarandil
Structural
Here is a good listing from NCSEA of different states and how they handle the SE. The summary map is below:
Nevada has come up in different circles as being pretty reasonable and straightforward for obtaining an SE license.
Mike, I do not believe CO has any recognition for the SE (although they will let you sign up to take the test there!)
----
just call me Lo.
Nevada has come up in different circles as being pretty reasonable and straightforward for obtaining an SE license.
Mike, I do not believe CO has any recognition for the SE (although they will let you sign up to take the test there!)
----
just call me Lo.
Per Lo's map posted above, Oklahoma is also a Partial Practice Act state now.
Harbor Compliance seems to be one of the better resources for staying up-to-date and putting all of the pertinent information in one place for every state,
Harbor Compliance seems to be one of the better resources for staying up-to-date and putting all of the pertinent information in one place for every state,
DaveAtkins
Structural
My problems with licensure have been similar--however, I am an Illinois SE!
* Bachelor of Science in Architectural Studies, University of Illinois, 1984 (non-ABET degree)
* Master of Architecture, Structures Option, University of Illinois, 1986 (non-ABET degree)
* Was allowed to take, and subsequently passed, the Illinois SE Exam, 1992
* Received Illinois SE license, 1993
* Received Wisconsin PE by reciprocity, 1994 (note--if I tried to do this today, I would be denied)
* Applied for Iowa PE license and was denied, 2016
* Appealed to Iowa Board, actually appeared before Board in person, and was again denied licensure, 2016
My point is not to bore you with my licensure history, but if it is of some help, great!
My words of advice to the OP:
* Don't bother appealing, it will be a waste of time.
My beef:
* Licensing boards see everything in black and white terms. If you don't precisely meet their requirements, no matter how talented, educated, or experienced you are, you are denied licensure. I think this is flat out wrong. The Iowa Board literally told me, "our hands are tied." I felt like saying, "How can that be? You are the Board!"
DaveAtkins
* Bachelor of Science in Architectural Studies, University of Illinois, 1984 (non-ABET degree)
* Master of Architecture, Structures Option, University of Illinois, 1986 (non-ABET degree)
* Was allowed to take, and subsequently passed, the Illinois SE Exam, 1992
* Received Illinois SE license, 1993
* Received Wisconsin PE by reciprocity, 1994 (note--if I tried to do this today, I would be denied)
* Applied for Iowa PE license and was denied, 2016
* Appealed to Iowa Board, actually appeared before Board in person, and was again denied licensure, 2016
My point is not to bore you with my licensure history, but if it is of some help, great!
My words of advice to the OP:
* Don't bother appealing, it will be a waste of time.
My beef:
* Licensing boards see everything in black and white terms. If you don't precisely meet their requirements, no matter how talented, educated, or experienced you are, you are denied licensure. I think this is flat out wrong. The Iowa Board literally told me, "our hands are tied." I felt like saying, "How can that be? You are the Board!"
DaveAtkins
JedClampett
Structural
DaveAtkins, I was in the same situation as you (passed the Illinois SE), but then, without any encouragement from my employer, decided to sit for the Illinois PE. I had never tried for reciprocity at that time, but I saw that it might be an issue in the future. The PE turned out to be the Golden Ticket. The bureaucrats that get the reciprocity forms have a box they can check. Now I have a whole wall of PE certificates.
Now this was a long time ago (my license numbers are in the single digits![[lol]](/data/assets/smilies/lol.gif "[lol] [lol]")
), so the PE might not be as easy as it used to be, but it removes the annoyance of having to explain that the SE is an engineering license to someone who could care less.
Now this was a long time ago (my license numbers are in the single digits
), so the PE might not be as easy as it used to be, but it removes the annoyance of having to explain that the SE is an engineering license to someone who could care less.- Thread starter
- #40
DaveAtkins,
Thanks for the history. Sounds like the red tape in Illinois has increased a lot since 1993. What was Iowa's issue?
Exactly, it seems like some boards either have their hands tied, or are too lazy to fix their own rules by which our applications are evaluated. I noticed some boards have fine print that essentially says they're willing to consider a master's degree if it's from a school that offers an ABET bachelor's degree. No such luck in Illinois.
Unfortunately by not fixing themselves as times change it's a lose-lose situation. It wastes engineers' time and money applying, and it fails the public in the exact duty the board has been taxed with: to make sure the most qualified individuals get licensed. I knew a lot of undergrads when I was getting my master's at Marquette. And they were smart kids, but obviously had less structural knowledge than me since I studied nothing but structures for 2 years, whereas they had to fill 90% of their curriculum with civil, water resources, fluid dynamics, transportation, history, literature, social/behavioral sciences, biology, chemistry, art, philosophy, racial/women's studies, etc. When I set foot in a building in Illinois, I feel great comfort knowing Marquette Master's degrees have been barred while Marquette Bachelor's degrees have licenses, all else being equal.
Thanks for the history. Sounds like the red tape in Illinois has increased a lot since 1993. What was Iowa's issue?
Exactly, it seems like some boards either have their hands tied, or are too lazy to fix their own rules by which our applications are evaluated. I noticed some boards have fine print that essentially says they're willing to consider a master's degree if it's from a school that offers an ABET bachelor's degree. No such luck in Illinois.
Unfortunately by not fixing themselves as times change it's a lose-lose situation. It wastes engineers' time and money applying, and it fails the public in the exact duty the board has been taxed with: to make sure the most qualified individuals get licensed. I knew a lot of undergrads when I was getting my master's at Marquette. And they were smart kids, but obviously had less structural knowledge than me since I studied nothing but structures for 2 years, whereas they had to fill 90% of their curriculum with civil, water resources, fluid dynamics, transportation, history, literature, social/behavioral sciences, biology, chemistry, art, philosophy, racial/women's studies, etc. When I set foot in a building in Illinois, I feel great comfort knowing Marquette Master's degrees have been barred while Marquette Bachelor's degrees have licenses, all else being equal.
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