I'm Giving Away Structural Engineering for Free - Visit Your Wrath Upon Me 23

[KootK]

THE SHORT

I am giving away free, preliminary, residential structural engineering services to my neighbors and am interested in collecting negative opinions about that. Such opinions may not alter my course on this but are valuable to me none the less. I feel that I've thought this through fairly exhaustively but, then, it's things that you think you know front to back that tend to get you into trouble. Specifically:

1) Liability issues.

2) Ethical issues.

3) Doing my part to further foul up an already fouled up marketplace for our ilk.

THE LONG

I) The Motivation

I've always wanted some kid of volunteer "thing". My rational self believes that altruism is really thinly veiled selfishness but, still, I've never been able to shake the impulse. Unfortunately, I've long struggled to find a volunteer thing that I deem satisfactory. Once one's income reaches a certain level, it just make more sense to give money than time. Bill Gates needs to be running the Bill & Not Melinda Foundation, not collecting pop cans or manning the phones at the donation hotline. My situation is a much, much more modest version of that. At the same time, giving money isn't something that satisfies my itch in this arena. I want to do something.

I moved into a new neibgorhood last June that has a real chance of ending up being my forever neighborhood. Yay me. Since closing on the sale, my plan has been to seize this opportunity to offer my neighbors my high value expertise on a pro-bono basis. Things like looking at basement wall cracks, leaning retaining walls, deck guard rails, basement post removals... you know the drill. I was thinking Facebook but, recently, my neighborhood got set up on a social media platform developed just for Neighborhoods. And it's catching on like wildfire. So, a couple of months ago, I set this plan into motion for real.

II) The Deal

If you live in my community, I will do the following free of charge:

a) Come to your place one or more times to discuss your renovation dreams and structural concerns as they relate to your property.

b) Advise you, in general to terms, as to your renovation options and whether or not I feel that your structural concerns have merit.

c) Refer you to a couple of local guys to do any detailed engineering required for permitting, construction, etc.

d) Casually and jovially make it clear that the cost of my free help is my expectation that I'll not be getting sued for the consequences of any of my advice.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

What I will not do:

f) Accept any paid assignments.

g) Stamp or sign anything.

h) Prepare detailed, actionable drawings or specifications.

i) Have you sign a waiver of liability. I thought about that but don't really feel that it offers me any meaningful protection beyond [d] above.

III) My Appraisal of the Risk

j) Obviously, there still is some, particularly with stuff like cracked basement wall evaluations where someone might chose to not do something based on my advice.

k) I would say that I'm accepting a calculated risk in this instance. Of course, it's a calculated risk that I'm altogether unable to calculate with any accuracy, so there's that.

l) From a purely business perspective, this is foolish, no question. Although, interestingly, I've been offered tons of paid residential work as a result of this exercise. I turn it all down as promised. The head of the senior's association has actually turned out to be a retired, formerly quite prominent architect which has obvious potential from a networking perspective. That old adage about trying to be useful rather than trying to be ostensibly successful seems to have an oddly quick ROI.

IV) The Results

In a world full of disappointments, this has panned out great so far. I've met a bunch of my neighbors and I'm providing real, charitable value. I've even become a bit of a community celebrity for my being willing / stupid enough to do this. Our neighborhood has a very active senior's association and they've invited me to offer the same services within their cohort (who doesn't like free stuff?). The nature of my neighborhood is that there a lot of older folks here that are what I'd call "house rich". Their properties have octupled in value since 1807 but they are on modest, fixed incomes just the same. This development has taken something that felt good to me to begin with and amped up the feel good factor another 50%. Sometimes I even get milk and cookies, like Santa.

Will I regret my decision if I wind up getting myself sued out of having a livelihood with which to support my own family? You betcha. And that brings us back to the calculated risk part. To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.

 

[XR250]

Ugh, bad idea in my experience. I have a strict “no friends or family policy” Their expectations always seem to be skewed and I also seem to not care of myself around them. Same goes for pro-bono work.

 

[WARose]

I have a strict “no friends or family policy”

Funny this comes up.....I've been trying to talk my parents into fixing something at their place. But they won't let me do it.....even if I pay for it myself. (And the engineering, done by me, is free.) My Dad feels "it's not broke, so don't fix it".

 

[1503-44]

Nothing wrong with giving neighbourly advice, especially to typically vulnerable retired folk that are ripe for predator home repair scams. As you say, don't charge, don't stamp. Are you not doing the same here? You might as well give to people you know too. I do much the same for nonprofit water charities by giving water pipeline, pump selection and purchasing advice. For profit, esp. petroleum companies, must pay. Everyone's happy. Remember, no charge, no stamp.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[KootK]

Thanks for your input XR. My own feelings on friends and family was part of what led to me insisting on not doing any paid work. In my experience, homeowners want the moon, often fail to pay, and are often dissatisfied with how long it takes me to do things (they are on the back burner relative to my bread & butter work). Residential work can be good work but I'm just not set up for it presently. By refusing to accept paid/detailed assignments, I'm hoping to dodge all of that. Of course, they may still screw me by suing me.

 

[skeletron]

You've asked for negative opinions, so here is my take:

1. A fair amount of the residential work you've mentioned actually goes ahead without permits. The work you provide without a paper trail leaves the situation kind of open-ended and maybe brings future liability to you.

2. I would argue that this is as much volunteering your time as it is about making connections (ie. ego boost). So, while you are a guy on the internet, you are not Bill Gates. And my moral compass suggests that this is less about the charitable impact of your donation. If it was, you maybe would consider the impact of your privilege and connect with a cause/group that addresses those without that privilege. But, you can do whatever you want with your money and time because...capitalism.

3a. A fair amount of the residential work you've mentioned also is difficult to get sufficient payment for. From my experience, most people want to pay you a Starbucks wage for driving 45 minutes, crawling through their attic, and then writing your observations on a letter. If that letter is less than 2 pages, most people think they are getting a raw deal. So, I do think that the work you suggest is actually perpetuating this common-people attitude.
3b. In consideration of 3a. there is a lot of this work that should actually have a second opinion attached to it because, let's face it, not all engineers have full awareness dialed in at all times. In that respect, I believe you are providing a necessary additional opinion that has value.

4. The basement wall or post removal could violate the code of ethics if there are public safety concerns which you observe, but do not notify beyond that.

 

[1503-44]

Good point KootK. Whenever you do something, anything, for money.. it somehow becomes just another job with all the associated headaches and limited satisfaction. Accepting payment only in smiles goes a long way.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[KootK]

Are you not doing the same here?

Yes, I see it the same. Hopefully it won't be offensive/condescending for me to reveal that, at times, I consider my efforts here to be charitable in nature. What I'm attempting with my friendly neighborhood structural engineer routine is to work that same concept at a more local scale.

 

[rb1957]

my 2cents ... work under the umbrella of an urban housing group like "Housing for Humanity".

to skeletron, I add "3c if you find things that need changing they complain "just looking to make work".

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[1503-44]

I haven't seen any deposits in my PayPal account, so yeah. What else is it.
Nothing wrong with that though. I made a decent life from engineering, so now its just time to give a little back.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[1503-44]

Well ... sorry, I've got no negative opinions about it. From my experience, don't worry about the a,b,c list and get on with it. Just don't charge, don't stamp and you will enjoy it... a lot.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[Ron247]

Giving "guidance only" will probably work OK. Many times, we do our most valuable work just getting someone pointed in the right direction for whatever their project is. I know I have saved a lot of folks money with just a brief review of what they had decided upon.

If you get into calculation of beam sizes, truss designs or produce any kind of drawing, etc, you will probably eventually regret this. This is especially true if the project goes South for any reason. Someone will eventually want more than is reasonable and compare what you did for someone else to what they are asking for. Any calculations or drawings will pull you into the liability noose.

Keeping it at verbal advice, and helping with the big picture of the project is a very nice thing to do and very helpful to them. That is more than enough "neighborly advice" for them.

Get ready for something you say can be done, but the engineer they have to hire says it cannot be done. We all have different abilities and confidence in what we do. If that engineer does not feel comfortable doing whatever that is, are then going to feel obligated to get involved deeper?

 

[phamENG]

Much of my thinking is in line with skeletron.

- No sure about the CBC, but a lot of repairs are allowed to be made without a permit here in Virginia. And then there are those that need a permit that is never pulled. Then there's the permits that I've seen pulled based on what was essentially a napkin sketch. So if you give them anything in writing, don't be surprised if it ends up at the AHJ attached to a permit application, or gets handed to a contractor for action. Another regional regulation thing - I'm supposed to seal all of my work. I can get away with interim coordination stuff and mark it "not for construction" but whatever my final product ends up being has to be sealed. Ultimately there's no substantive difference in liability between saying or writing X without a seal and writing X with a seal. If somebody does X after either of them, it's on you.

- We may not be glamorous or rich, but there are a bunch of us who rely on some of this kind of work to keep the lights on. It's typically a quick turnaround and I can usually negotiate a worthwhile fee, and doing a couple little inspections each week covers my overhead and keeps sufficient cash flow to let me focus on my more profitable work for the rest of the week without worrying. Having somebody swoop in and start doing it for free would hurt, especially if things slow down very much.

It sounds like the cat's out of the bag on this, but maybe switching it up to offering free second opinions to your neighbors after they've paid an engineer to look at it?

 

[ATSE]

Koot - you're a decent man.
However, horrible idea - especially for you.
Most people - but particularly homeowners - do not understand risk, probability, extreme events, ductility... Nor do they appreciate good engineering vs below average engineering. And most people are ungrateful.
Throwing pearls before swine.
You were made for greater things. Most non-profits would benefit from your experience far more than Joe Six-pack.

 

[XR250]

The problem I run into is not keeping my "PE" hat on in an effort to save them money and to look like the hero doing this for free. Ultimately, this just exposes me to more liability.
I imagine your insurance company may frown upon it as well as there is no fee adding to your yearly income - which is what your rates are based on.
Also, I make a ton of cash on residential inspections (the benefit of living in an area with a housing boom). As Pham stated, I don't want anyone swoopjng in on that.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

I've done the same thing on occasion for friends and family. When I've done it like you suggest it has been a better experience. My previous experience:
1) I walked a friend (who is a mechanical engineer) through some settlement / deflection issues he was having and theorized on the cause. It was a big relief for him when we together determined it was likely due to an excavation he did a couple of years previously for a broken sewer pipe. I didn't do any drawings or anything like that. Just looked at the cracked drywall in various rooms, where it seemed to be originating from and asked if he had any idea why this particular spot of his house might be settling now after not settling for the previous 50 years.

2) Similar experience when someone wanted to determine if one of their walls was a bearing wall or not. Simple question and involved going up into a hot attic to assess the roof framing.

3) Not as good of an experience when I designed a wood - post support when my parents removed a bearing wall. Just a lot of work outside of what I normally did back then. And, dealing with contractors and "designer" that I didn't enjoy working with. I really didn't like being the only stamp on a project. Felt like I could be taking liability for a project that was much more extensive than the part I designed.

4) My own house had a settlement issues when we bought it. Someone had added on about 6 ft to the kitchen. The soil 6ft away from the original soil, clearly had not been compacted. It scared a lot of potential buyers away.

 

[KootK]

@skeletron: thanks for chiming in, that's just the kind of advice that I'm seeking. And, fundamentally, I agree with all of it.

2. I would argue that this is as much volunteering your time as it is about making connections (ie. ego boost).

a) Yes, it is a form of volunteering my time. It appeals to me in this format because I feel that it is my high value time.

b) To clarify:

i) Yes, I always hoped to use this vehicle to form connections with my neighbors that I wouldn't otherwise have.

ii) It was never my intent to use this vehicle to form new business connections. It's just been interesting to me how one actually has to actively prevent that from taking place. It's beautiful really.

c) Yes to the ego boost. The difference between what I'm doing in my neighborhood and what I try to do on Eng-Tips is fundamentally that the help that I offer within my neighborhood is:

iii) Attached to me, personally, rather than just my internet alter ego. I feel that I am both being magnanimous and being seen to be magnanimous;

iv) I take satisfaction in helping folks in Singapore with their structural engineering problems. That said, I take more satisfaction in helping folks down the street with their, albeit very mundane, structural engineering problems. This is, of course, a natural impulse.

And my moral compass suggests that this is less about the charitable impact of your donation. If it was, you maybe would consider the impact of your privilege and connect with a cause/group that addresses those without that privilege.

This speaks to my earlier comment regarding my skepticism regarding all ultraistic acts:

1) What I'm not doing is attempting to be as altruistic of a person as I can be. That's not me. And I'm not even sure that I know what that really means philosophically.

2) What I am genuinely attempting to do is to align my own selfishness (ego) with a vehicle for doing something that my community deems to be of value.

I would surely be a better man if I were taking in lepers rather than giving away structural engineering advice. But, then, I don't claim to be anywhere near that good of a man. Take away the ego stroking and I'm out.

 

[KootK]

I imagine your insurance company may frown upon it as well as there is no fee adding to your yearly income - which is what your rates are based on.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

That's how that part of it unfolded.

Well ... sorry, I've got no negative opinions about it.

I'm glad to hear about that as well as the negative stuff. As you can imagine, I simply anticipated what the tenor of this conversation would be. And I didn't want anybody holding back.

 

[skeletron]

Use the word "authentic" and "authenticity", which has a better vibe to it than altruism.

 

[KootK]

If that engineer does not feel comfortable doing whatever that is, are then going to feel obligated to get involved deeper?

1) No, I wouldn't normally get more deeply involved.

2) I will recommend several options for detailed engineering services but one of them will be my preferred. He's another guy in the neighborhood that is a personal friend and excels at this kind of work. When he gets involved, I will take some comfort in the risk mitigation that provides.

3) To an extent, this will be an exercise in educating my faux clients. I'll make it clear to them that:

a) the answers may vary based on the judgement of the guy or gal doing the stamping.

b) nobody knows the answer with certainty until the calculators come out.

4) If the owner wants me to discussion some of my thoughts on a problem with their EOR, I'd be happy to do that. Whether or not the EOR wants to engage me in that way is probably more a question for them. My friend down the road absolutely would be willing to brainstorm with me, as I would with him.