I'm Giving Away Structural Engineering for Free - Visit Your Wrath Upon Me 23

[KootK]

THE SHORT

I am giving away free, preliminary, residential structural engineering services to my neighbors and am interested in collecting negative opinions about that. Such opinions may not alter my course on this but are valuable to me none the less. I feel that I've thought this through fairly exhaustively but, then, it's things that you think you know front to back that tend to get you into trouble. Specifically:

1) Liability issues.

2) Ethical issues.

3) Doing my part to further foul up an already fouled up marketplace for our ilk.

THE LONG

I) The Motivation

I've always wanted some kid of volunteer "thing". My rational self believes that altruism is really thinly veiled selfishness but, still, I've never been able to shake the impulse. Unfortunately, I've long struggled to find a volunteer thing that I deem satisfactory. Once one's income reaches a certain level, it just make more sense to give money than time. Bill Gates needs to be running the Bill & Not Melinda Foundation, not collecting pop cans or manning the phones at the donation hotline. My situation is a much, much more modest version of that. At the same time, giving money isn't something that satisfies my itch in this arena. I want to do something.

I moved into a new neibgorhood last June that has a real chance of ending up being my forever neighborhood. Yay me. Since closing on the sale, my plan has been to seize this opportunity to offer my neighbors my high value expertise on a pro-bono basis. Things like looking at basement wall cracks, leaning retaining walls, deck guard rails, basement post removals... you know the drill. I was thinking Facebook but, recently, my neighborhood got set up on a social media platform developed just for Neighborhoods. And it's catching on like wildfire. So, a couple of months ago, I set this plan into motion for real.

II) The Deal

If you live in my community, I will do the following free of charge:

a) Come to your place one or more times to discuss your renovation dreams and structural concerns as they relate to your property.

b) Advise you, in general to terms, as to your renovation options and whether or not I feel that your structural concerns have merit.

c) Refer you to a couple of local guys to do any detailed engineering required for permitting, construction, etc.

d) Casually and jovially make it clear that the cost of my free help is my expectation that I'll not be getting sued for the consequences of any of my advice.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

What I will not do:

f) Accept any paid assignments.

g) Stamp or sign anything.

h) Prepare detailed, actionable drawings or specifications.

i) Have you sign a waiver of liability. I thought about that but don't really feel that it offers me any meaningful protection beyond [d] above.

III) My Appraisal of the Risk

j) Obviously, there still is some, particularly with stuff like cracked basement wall evaluations where someone might chose to not do something based on my advice.

k) I would say that I'm accepting a calculated risk in this instance. Of course, it's a calculated risk that I'm altogether unable to calculate with any accuracy, so there's that.

l) From a purely business perspective, this is foolish, no question. Although, interestingly, I've been offered tons of paid residential work as a result of this exercise. I turn it all down as promised. The head of the senior's association has actually turned out to be a retired, formerly quite prominent architect which has obvious potential from a networking perspective. That old adage about trying to be useful rather than trying to be ostensibly successful seems to have an oddly quick ROI.

IV) The Results

In a world full of disappointments, this has panned out great so far. I've met a bunch of my neighbors and I'm providing real, charitable value. I've even become a bit of a community celebrity for my being willing / stupid enough to do this. Our neighborhood has a very active senior's association and they've invited me to offer the same services within their cohort (who doesn't like free stuff?). The nature of my neighborhood is that there a lot of older folks here that are what I'd call "house rich". Their properties have octupled in value since 1807 but they are on modest, fixed incomes just the same. This development has taken something that felt good to me to begin with and amped up the feel good factor another 50%. Sometimes I even get milk and cookies, like Santa.

Will I regret my decision if I wind up getting myself sued out of having a livelihood with which to support my own family? You betcha. And that brings us back to the calculated risk part. To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.

 

[kipfoot]

I often feel that residential consultations that I've been paid for are charity work. If not for me agreeing to come have a look, people get stuck with some foundation repair place that advertises on highway billboards. I've also given out structural renovation advice freely over beers at a friend's house, so I see the appeal and I'm sure the pleasure helping people and being seen as a generous neighbor will outweigh the downside.

But in the spirit of harnessing the power of negative thinking, what about when you find the nutty people in your community:
1) jealousy among neighbors. "KootK said my basement swimming pool wasn't feasible after 15 minutes, but he spent an hour with Harriet and gave her kitchen renovation the thumbs up!"
2) Hard feelings from choosy beggars. "Why can't you just draw up a plan? It will take 5 minutes and you're already here!"
3) Something you feel isn't a problem actually becomes a problem. Maybe it seems like some minor shrinkage cracking, but turns out that termites have eaten the mudsill. Not that you'd get sued, but rather, "If KootK had only belly crawled under the house, this wouldn't have gotten so bad."
4) You point out something that's a real problem that costs someone a lot of money to fix. "But, it's been fine all these years!" Now you're the bearer of bad news.

I think you've got the liability and technical issues covered, so the actual risk is that you try to help people and they don't appreciate it, take it for granted, and associate you with their problems. Now, you're stuck with them because you live there.

 

[Rabbit12]

I wouldn't do this.

Explaining to someone that you expect not to be sued isn't much of a safety net IMO. All it takes is one thing to go wrong to the right person to completely destroy your career (I'm not worth much if I lose my engineering license) and take everything you've worked for in life.

A few months back a person who I have a close relationship with was telling me about his plan to build a second floor addition to his garage on the ground and crane it into place. He had talked to an engineer who said his fee was something like $3500. I told him to make sure the engineer has in his scope to design it to be lifted. His response was, "the crane guy will figure that out". My buddy is clueless to load path. My point is it takes one DIY guy to misunderstand your advice for this all to come crashing down (pun intended).

I'm probably a little more conservative on helping others than most, but I'm just not willing to gamble the means for which I provide for my family even though the risk is certainly really low.

 

[PEinc]

I agree with XR. No good deed goes unpunished.

http://www.PeirceEngineering.com

 

[STrctPono]

To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.

I do love this last line because I too feel the same way. Maybe if things go south one day for me I will change my tune but for now, this resonates with me.

The assumed risk is pretty low in the grand scheme of things but there surely is still some there. Providing only verbal consultation with no letter or stamp seems to be the smartest route. Many people probably don't even know where to start, are confused by the process, not sure when and if a structural engineer is even needed or if they just hire a contractor, and whether a building permit is required. Your consultation is probably helping many individuals unfamiliar with the industry get started in the right direction as this advice is coming from an unbiased professional with no hidden agendas or strings attached.

If this provides you satisfaction in life and fulfills your charitable nature then I would say it is a good thing and the (low) risk should not be enough to deter you from doing it. You also have a good head on your shoulders and are always a wise voice in this forum so I couldn't imagine that anybody here would think that you would be the type that would be providing hasty, inexperienced, and otherwise bad advice to homeowners that would expose you to even more liability.

My personal experience with gratis work involves having designed 4 custom homes and a dozen or so additions/renovations for colleagues and friends. I try to fit these in between my normal busy paying job that is not residential related. I sometimes groan inside when somebody asks me to help because I know I am too nice to say no but don't really want to take on the extra work load. Since I don't do houses normally it is a significant amount more work for me than it would be for someone who does it all the time. For that, I am in a different boat from many who have a strict "no friends or family policy."

 

[1503-44]

Post your advice on an anonomous Internet home repair advice forum and give your neighbor the link.
Problem solved.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[rb1957]

I wonder if you give away your service, can you be sued ? maybe get professional help (from a lawyer, or a bar-keep !) ?

I thinking "why do people buy something (or offer as a price for something) $1 ?" I'm thinking there needs to be a cash transaction in order for there to be liability.

But what do I know ? I'm just another cow quietly chewing my cud in the back field hoping no-one will notice me ...

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[1503-44]

RB you are pretty much correct. Without the exchange of at least $1 in actual money, it is an order of magnitude more difficult to prove anything of value was given or received.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[STrctPono]

I'm thinking there needs to be a cash transaction in order for there to be liability.

I remember in one of my annual "attend a liability insurance seminar by your provider to scare the pants off of you so that you stop doing all the bad habits you do so that you can get a percentage off of your premiums" they told us a story of an engineering professional that provided advice via a free seminar where he had gave some poor advice that ended up in litigation and he had to settle out. The details escape me but the big take-away was that even free advice can still land you in hot water with lawyers. However, I'm sure as 1503-44 stated, it is much harder to prove.

 

[rowingengineer]

We support an organisations like "men's sheds" in Australia, we offer discounts on our services often to the full value.


Up to you how you want to skin the cat, giving back to the community is a great idea.

 

[KootK]

Up to you how you want to skin the cat, giving back to the community is a great idea.

Yeah, from my ad:

I'm just a guy with a very limited number of skills trying to give a little something back to my neighborhood.

That's as "authentic" as I know how to be with it.

 

[KootK]

I wonder if you give away your service, can you be sued ? maybe get professional help (from a lawyer, or a bar-keep !) ?

I mostly agree. You absolutely can get sued over free advice but, when I do the thought experiment of myself in court over this, it plays out like this:

1) Plaintiff: KootK gave me this advice and it went south.

2) KootK: I gave that advice along with the instruction that it be followed up with the second opinion of another engineer willing to sign off on it. As evidence of that, I submit the following:

a) There is no paper trail to support my having done otherwise.

b) The advertisement for my services made this aspect of the arrangement clear.

c) Here are a dozen other folks that I similarly helped an form whom nature of the arrangement was clear. Maybe some elderly folks on ventilators as character witness would help here.

d) I accepted no remuneration for the advice offered because it was not intended to represent stand alone, actionable advice.

Is the no remuneration part a get out of jail free card? Nope. Does it represent weight in favor of my legal position? It's hard to imagine that it wouldn't.

 

[EZBuilding]

KootK I agree with your thought experiment regarding the potential outcomes of litigation - however - I think you are missing one part of the equation. Defending yourself in court will possibly cost you money and will definitely will be a time commitment and headache. Even if the verdict negates you of any culpability you will may have sunk a lot of time that could have been used in other endeavors. On this side of the border, Civil litigation also allows for liability to be based on percentage of culpability. If a judge/jury/arbitrator finds your free advice accounted for only 10% of the damages, that could still end up being more than you bargained for.

I do generally agree with your belief that this is generally low risk work, especially when you consider that the liability to fee equation is completely out of whack for everything that we do.

I would challenge you on the basis of the type of volunteer work that you are pursuing. Some of my favorite memories were of being a student volunteer for Engineers Without Borders. I would have killed to have had a mentor with your insight in delivering the projects that I did.

 

[JedClampett]

KootK, I've done the same for friends and business associates.
I always wanted to have a cool job where I could help friends, like a lawyer, policeman or brain surgeon, but my talents were more toward kl/r. So if someone asks me to do a few calculations for a dock or garage, I do it. These are mostly engineers who self seal their work.

 

[KootK]

Explaining to someone that you expect not to be sued isn't much of a safety net IMO.

No, it certainly would not constitute rigorous legal protection. That said, and while acknowledging that many will deem this naïve: I feel that many people, upon hearing that, would feel honor bound to not screw me over on the liability front.

And that brings me to another from of risk mitigation that I'm employing here that will surely bring my morality, or lack thereof, back to the fore: I take comfort in knowing that I'm unlikely to be offering my pro-bono services to poor folks. Yup, that just got said...

My neighborhood is immediately south of a sexy body of water. Because of that, and the fact that it's an established community with big yards and old growth trees:

1) It's no Bel Air but, at the same time, nobody buys into the neighborhood with what one would consider a starter home.

2) Most of the folks that I'd be helping could be expected to be able to mobilize a $50K line of credit within 48 hours if they had a mind to.

3) Almost nobody in my neighborhood is renting.

4) Most of the folks in my neighborhood have been here for a decade or three an wish for harmony with their neighbors.

As you move south of my neighborhood, the picture changes pretty rapidly. You get into:

5) Landlords.

6) Renters.

7) Homes that may not have been maintained as well as they are in my area.

8) Properties that may already be involved in litigation.

9) Folks with fewer resources with which to do things properly and, therefore, more incentive to cut corners.

Long story short, by excluding folks of a lower socioeconomic status, I feel that I'm improving the odds that my "clients" would feel honor bound not to screw me over. And that's a form of risk mitigation in my opinion. My halo's getting dirtier by the post here but that's how I see it.

Note that I am not saying that poor folks are inherently bad. Rather, I'm saying that poor folks are more likely to be desperate and that such desperation tends to lead all human beings into unfortunate situations. I would feel quite differently about this setup were I to be offering my services to, say, Compton, which I could certainly do if I wished it and were willing to work from photographs/sketches/drones.

Also, my original impetus for limiting my services to my immediate community was nothing more than me trying to keep volume manageable. Other neighborhoods will have to find their own, nutball structural engineers to work pro bono. The discrimination and associated risk mitigation are just happy side effects of that.

 

[KootK]

I always wanted to have a cool job where I could help friends, like a lawyer, policeman or brain surgeon...

Yes, exactly. There are, of course, good Samaritan laws that protect doctors when the question "is there a doctor in the house?" arises. Granted, those are true emergencies in the way that the stuff I will be involved with are not.

 

[KootK]

You were made for greater things. Most non-profits would benefit from your experience far more than Joe Six-pack.

Gracias. It raises a interesting point though with respect to just what I was made for:

1) Residential? Nope. Plenty of people are better than I at this.

2) Commercial/Institutional? Also not. It will surprise no one to learn that my technical pedantry slows down project delivery in a way that employers do not relish. I deliberately hide that aspect of myself when working on someone else's payroll.

Frankly, I believe that the only true home for my most high value skills is right here, at Eng-tips, where I am not compensated for those skill and I don't shake the hands of the folks that I try to help.

This leads me to believe that, for me, it's a choice between:

3) Using my expertise and experience at maximum leverage for the benefit of folks that I'll never meet.

4) Exploiting my expertise somewhat inefficiently helping out with my neighbors' residential stuff.

Those things are kind of a toss up in my book. I'd like to do both.

 

[WARose]

I was thinking about it the other day: 90% of the work I turn down is residential. It's not just the liability issue (vs. the pay).....it's also the fact you get stiffed a lot. So doing it on a volunteer basis may be the only way.

 

[electricpete]

This leads me to believe that, for me, it's a choice between:
3) Using my expertise and experience at maximum leverage for the benefit of folks that I'll never meet.
4) Exploiting my expertise somewhat inefficiently helping out with my neighbors' residential stuff.

Maybe dip one toe in each pool. I imagine both can be fulfilling, each in their own way.

I always admired people that are good at working on cars, they never run out of friends.


=====================================
(2B)+(2B)' ?

 

[KootK]

Maybe dip one toe in each pool. I imagine both can be fulfilling, each in their own way.

Just what I hope to do pete.

I always admired people that are good at working on cars, they never run out of friends.

My first kick at this cat was to offer free bike repair services. Bearing overhauls, indexed shifting tunes, wheel truings...

Unfortunately, that space is utterly saturated and I'd be competing against a bunch of retired / low income folks charging $25/HR. Frankly, I'd rather annoy local structural engineers making five tims that much.

 

[KootK]

You also have a good head on your shoulders and are always a wise voice in this forum so I couldn't imagine that anybody here would think that you would be the type that would be providing hasty, inexperienced, and otherwise bad advice to homeowners that would expose you to even more liability.

Firstly, thank you for the kind words.

Secondly, this reminds me of an oft used saying of one of my mentors: the best insurance policy is not being wrong. With that in mind, I've taken a stab at assessing the real risks involved here with what I feel are pretty conservative numbers. At 2.2%, I'd be willing to roll the die. A little less so at 9.5%. Although my appetite for the 9.5% is certainly greater now than it would have been when I was 25.