Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations waross on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

I'm Giving Away Structural Engineering for Free - Visit Your Wrath Upon Me 23

Status
Not open for further replies.

KootK

Structural
Oct 16, 2001
17,990
CA
THE SHORT

I am giving away free, preliminary, residential structural engineering services to my neighbors and am interested in collecting negative opinions about that. Such opinions may not alter my course on this but are valuable to me none the less. I feel that I've thought this through fairly exhaustively but, then, it's things that you think you know front to back that tend to get you into trouble. Specifically:

1) Liability issues.

2) Ethical issues.

3) Doing my part to further foul up an already fouled up marketplace for our ilk.

THE LONG

I) The Motivation

I've always wanted some kid of volunteer "thing". My rational self believes that altruism is really thinly veiled selfishness but, still, I've never been able to shake the impulse. Unfortunately, I've long struggled to find a volunteer thing that I deem satisfactory. Once one's income reaches a certain level, it just make more sense to give money than time. Bill Gates needs to be running the Bill & Not Melinda Foundation, not collecting pop cans or manning the phones at the donation hotline. My situation is a much, much more modest version of that. At the same time, giving money isn't something that satisfies my itch in this arena. I want to do something.

I moved into a new neibgorhood last June that has a real chance of ending up being my forever neighborhood. Yay me. Since closing on the sale, my plan has been to seize this opportunity to offer my neighbors my high value expertise on a pro-bono basis. Things like looking at basement wall cracks, leaning retaining walls, deck guard rails, basement post removals... you know the drill. I was thinking Facebook but, recently, my neighborhood got set up on a social media platform developed just for Neighborhoods. And it's catching on like wildfire. So, a couple of months ago, I set this plan into motion for real.

II) The Deal

If you live in my community, I will do the following free of charge:

a) Come to your place one or more times to discuss your renovation dreams and structural concerns as they relate to your property.

b) Advise you, in general to terms, as to your renovation options and whether or not I feel that your structural concerns have merit.

c) Refer you to a couple of local guys to do any detailed engineering required for permitting, construction, etc.

d) Casually and jovially make it clear that the cost of my free help is my expectation that I'll not be getting sued for the consequences of any of my advice.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

What I will not do:

f) Accept any paid assignments.

g) Stamp or sign anything.

h) Prepare detailed, actionable drawings or specifications.

i) Have you sign a waiver of liability. I thought about that but don't really feel that it offers me any meaningful protection beyond [d] above.

III) My Appraisal of the Risk

j) Obviously, there still is some, particularly with stuff like cracked basement wall evaluations where someone might chose to not do something based on my advice.

k) I would say that I'm accepting a calculated risk in this instance. Of course, it's a calculated risk that I'm altogether unable to calculate with any accuracy, so there's that.

l) From a purely business perspective, this is foolish, no question. Although, interestingly, I've been offered tons of paid residential work as a result of this exercise. I turn it all down as promised. The head of the senior's association has actually turned out to be a retired, formerly quite prominent architect which has obvious potential from a networking perspective. That old adage about trying to be useful rather than trying to be ostensibly successful seems to have an oddly quick ROI.

IV) The Results

In a world full of disappointments, this has panned out great so far. I've met a bunch of my neighbors and I'm providing real, charitable value. I've even become a bit of a community celebrity for my being willing / stupid enough to do this. Our neighborhood has a very active senior's association and they've invited me to offer the same services within their cohort (who doesn't like free stuff?). The nature of my neighborhood is that there a lot of older folks here that are what I'd call "house rich". Their properties have octupled in value since 1807 but they are on modest, fixed incomes just the same. This development has taken something that felt good to me to begin with and amped up the feel good factor another 50%. Sometimes I even get milk and cookies, like Santa.

Will I regret my decision if I wind up getting myself sued out of having a livelihood with which to support my own family? You betcha. And that brings us back to the calculated risk part. To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

KootK said:
Long story short, by excluding folks of a lower socioeconomic status, I feel that I'm improving the odds that my "clients" would feel honor bound not to screw me over.

Keep in mind, if something goes south it won't be your neighbor suing you, it will be their insurance company.
 
1503-44 said:
Its too easy to connect the dots to "whats he really doing this for", thereby creating a barrier to trust and it suggests there is a business motive.

Presently, the ad says these things in various spots:

"100% free of charge, I'm volunteering to provide preliminary structural engineering help to my neighbors with their home assessment & home improvement projects.

"For the detailed stuff, I'd be referring you to someone else so as to maintain my charitable status within the hood."

"All on the house, no sneaky bids to procure paid work out of the deal."

That's about as clear as I'm able to express my intent without getting ridiculous. I've no doubt that there will still be those who suspect me of ulterior motives. To that, I say screw 'em, I can't plese everybody all of the time.

 
IceNine said:
Keep in mind, if something goes south it won't be your neighbor suing you, it will be their insurance company.

That is true but, in the absence of any paper trail at all, the owner would still have to take the active step of pointing their insurer in my direction.
 
Altruism. The act of giving without obligations or expectations is a wonderful feeling. Likewise receiving generosity without obligation or guilt is similarly heart warming. We are community and tribal animals, the modern world teaches us to ignore many of these local community aspects.

Do what you feel makes you happy. Giving out free services could be that.

Some people couldn't think of anything worse than practicing their profession for in their spare time. Others are different.
 
LittleInch said:
Reconsider your points d and l and instead just say in a sheepish way "I'm very sorry to ask you to do this, but my lawyer / wife / the organisation need you to acknowledge what I'm doing for you"

I'll reconsider that aspect, as you've suggested. If I do it it won't be sheepish though. I may just have them sign a statement attesting that I'm really just a highly opinionated Amazon deliver guy.
 
human909 said:
Some people couldn't think of anything worse than practicing their profession for in their spare time.

One thing that I didn't realize until it was too late is that my obsession with structural engineering has led to me truly being quite one dimensional. Save brute physical labor, there simply are not many forms of help that I'm able to offer my fellow man other than this one.
 
Actually just noticed it should have been points d and i... not l

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.
 
hang on, are you trying to have it both ways ?

you replied to me that you expect to owner to follow up with a "proper professional" service before acting on your advice (rather than taking your advice at face value (nil?) and acting on it)?

then what's the point ?
1) you look at something and say "yeah, this is trouble, go see an engineer". you may add "these are the things he should look at, and it should cost you something like $X".
2) you look at something and say "nah bother laddie, just a lick o'paint". continue "but if you want, go get a 2nd opinion" ?

If you give your opinion, I think you should anticipate that people will act on it. Obviously, if something looks bad I think you'd recommend a "proper professional" sort it out.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
How big will your neighborhood end up being, and to what extent will you be willing to continue your "volunteerism"?

What I mean is this: if by word of mouth the news of your localized good deeds finds its way into other neighborhoods and communities, where do you draw the line as it relates to provision of this courtesy service? Certainly, you can explain to an "outsider" that your efforts were only ever intended to be applicable to the neighborhood in which you reside, so your own protection isn't necessarily in question here. But the offshoot could be that you've set a precedent/standard that other residential engineers would be expected to aspire to, and when they don't (or can't afford to), there's fallout on them for not being an engineer who "puts the community first" like the KootK guy.

This is not so much about you as it is about the lowest common denominator that human behavior often devolves into. What starts out as a good deed by one well-meaning professional ends up potentially hurting peers.

I personally don't do residential work of this scale if I can help it, simply because of the huge disparity between the homeowner's perception of appropriate cost and the actual value of the engineering service. Homeowners really do tend to expect a lot for nothing; I applaud those engineers who - in spite of this barrier - somehow manage to make a living in such an environment. I think it is these same engineers who would end up paying the price for what amounts to be, on your part, an unintentional market adjustment.

 
He's not sealing anything, writing reports, making drawings etc. IMO real engineers shouldn't be charging for the simple "advice" he is offering to do anyway. When there are calculations to be made, drawings to do, reports to file, plans to seal, 50,000 dollar projects(?) to manage, deadlines to complete, headaches, etc. fine, but a few words of friendly advice... come on. Is that really going to throw the market into turmoil? If there's really that little in it for you, I'd rather be pumping gas.

But if that might be a problem, why not ask the engineers in your area. See what they think. If you are going to cause problems with them then OK, stick to reading bed time stories to the grandkids.

IMO, most of this advice, aside from a few short typical disclaimers, is so far over the top that I can't even believe any of it is really serious. If there is so much real negativity about giving friendly advice ... its no wonder why everyone is taking guns to shopping malls. REALLY? But then again, it could be so negative and apparently distorted so much, because KootK, that's what you asked for. Keep that in mind when deciding how to proceed.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.
 
Human909 said:
Some people couldn't think of anything worse than practicing their profession for in their spare time

That's me. The last thing I want to do in my spare time - especially for free. I'm having a hard enough time designing myself a new house. Maybe consider volunteering with Habitat for Humanity or working the line at a soup kitchen.
 
rb1957 said:
hang on, are you trying to have it both ways?

No, I don't believe that I am. In most scenarios, I see a fairly natural division between the scope the preliminary advice that I'd be offering and that of a stamping professional doing the detailed work. Often, but not always, I see myself deliberately refraining from providing advice that would be detailed enough for a homeowner to act on it.

rb1957 said:
then what's the point ?

I feel that LittleInch articulated that particularly well so I'll just lean on his stuff. These are things that I feel that I can help with without getting too deep into the weeds.

LittleInch said:
A) Scared to death that anything they do will cost them a fortune in either engineering fees or construction costs, when it is actually fairly simple or
B) Have no comprehension that what they want to do could be very costly or cause death and destruction and Old joe the builder doesn't know that either

rb1957 said:
If you give your opinion, I think you should anticipate that people will act on it.

1) I would expect people to act upon my opinions with respect to asset management decision making, not detailed engineering solutions. With out that, there truly would be no point to the exercise.

2) Where appropriate, a large part of my opinion will be "hire a structural engineer". In broad terms, I feel that anyone attempting to sue me for following my recommendations is beholden to have followed all of my recommendations, including this one.
 
XR250 said:
Maybe consider volunteering with Habitat for Humanity or working the line at a soup kitchen.

Something that should not be glossed over here is that my proposed solution is partly born of extreme laziness. Givenan itch to do something, this is about as low effort as it gets. I can, and have, literally banged out a couple of these as parts of my evening dog walks. Volunteering with soup kitchens, habitats for humanity, Haiti etc are all likely to represent vastly higher levels of commitment and real effort on my part. I'm all about the optimized ROI on this. I want my halo on the cheap.
 
At the heart of it, KootK would be doing a great thing. My post above simply points to how even the noblest of good deeds or good intentions can potentially create some undesirable downstream ripples that are just a function of human nature.

Asking some engineers in the area, as 1503-44 referenced, might not be a bad idea. Heck, maybe these peer engineers would be all for it considering they're the ones who stand to benefit monetarily if they are selected to do the actual formalized/sealed work on the heels of KootK's courtesy laying of groundwork. Or maybe they'll staunchly oppose it.

In the end, "humans gonna human".

 
Seppe said:
How big will your neighborhood end up being, and to what extent will you be willing to continue your "volunteerism"?

About ten blocks square. A nice feature of the neighborhood app thing is that they've established a hard, geographical definition of what it means to be in my neighborhood. So I've just piggy backed upon that as my boundary zone and will refuse service to anyone outside of that zone unless I see a compelling reason to do otherwise in a particular situation. Every neighborhood needs to find their own Peter Parkier.

Seppe said:
Certainly, you can explain to an "outsider" that your efforts were only ever intended to be applicable to the neighborhood in which you reside, so your own protection isn't necessarily in question here.

Agreed. So far, I've had two people reach out to me from outside my neighborhood. I suspect that both hoped that I'd step up and extend my free offer to them but neither came right out and said that. Rather, it was:

"I saw your add. I'm not in your neighborhood but I've got this issue that requires a structural engineer. Can you recommend one? You seem like a decent guy and I'd sooner lean on a referral from you than no referral at all."

Maybe I can parlay this into a power brokerage thing. Nobody in town gets to do residential work unless it goes through KootK with a 20% "protection" fee. Yeah...

Seppe said:
But the offshoot could be that you've set a precedent/standard that other residential engineers would be expected to aspire to, and when they don't (or can't afford to), there's fallout on them for not being an engineer who "puts the community first" like the KootK guy.

If a group of local structural engineers came to me at some point claiming that my thing was causing them discomfort, I'd probably cease and desist. Bel Air might be my community but structural engineers are my people. That said, I view this outcome as improbable enough that I'm not willing to change course to pre-empt it in advance.

Seppe said:
I think it is these same engineers who would end up paying the price for what amounts to be, on your part, an unintentional market adjustment.

I really do see my efforts in this as being:

1) Less a stealer of work and more;
2) A whetter of appetites.

One might view this as me doing other engineers' business development for them. As 1503-44 suggests, some engineers will do this stuff as loss leader work in the hope of eventually getting the paid work. In a way, I might be shouldering the burden of the loss and passing along the prize.
 
Seppe said:
Asking some engineers in the area, as 1503-44 referenced, might not be a bad idea.

I agree, I liked that suggestion too.

Seppe said:
Heck, maybe these peer engineers would be all for it considering they're the ones who stand to benefit monetarily if they are selected to do the actual formalized/sealed work on the heels of KootK's courtesy laying of groundwork.

Ha! We basically cross posted that same idea. Whether it's legit or not, it's nice to know that at least one other person views that as a possibility.
 
KootK said:
Long story short, by excluding folks of a lower socioeconomic status, I feel that I'm improving the odds that my "clients" would feel honor bound not to screw me over.

Oh so many years ago my Mom worked for a company renting very, very expensive condos. Nonetheless, some renters were aware of local laws that didn't permit eviction between November and April. They stopped paying in November, and disappeared in late April. Socioeconomic status is very poorly correlated with honesty and integrity. These are independent characteristics. Some of the best people I've met couldn't find two dimes to rub together.

However I still wish you well. My expertise is pressure vessel and other large refinery tanks. Not the kind of things my neighbours want advice about. I have to find other outlets for my desire to give back to my local community. Plus Eng-Tips to keep my engineering brain ticking.

PS : As a long time member of APEGA (and others) I'm looking forward to hearing their opinion.
 
Geoff13 said:
Some of the best people I've met couldn't find two dimes to rub together.

That's my truth as well. But this cannot be the truth:

Geoff13 said:
Socioeconomic status is very poorly correlated with honesty and integrity.

Statistics clearly demonstrate a strong correlation between poverty and crime. And that only make sense. No species made it to now by prioritizing ethics over survival.

Are most poor people dishonest? No. Are a disproportionate number of dishonest crimes committed by poor people? You bet.

All that I was trying to say is that my typical "client" in this situation is unlikely to be motivated by financial desperation and, therefore, may well have the luxury of acting in accord with their own ethical beliefs which should favor not throwing me under the bus somewhat.
 
Two interesting features of my new neighborhood:

1) Because of covid, I've not gotten to know many of my neighbors yet.

2) Accidentally, I have a highschool friend that's lived here a long time and, thus, I have a side window into how my new neighbors perceive me.

I'm known as "Duck Foot", that new, smiley guy who's usually on a bike and thinks that Crocs are appropriate footwear year round.

So this is an image rehabilitation exercise among other things. And there's a liability upshot: who in their right mind would base their major asset planning on the advice of someone known as Duck Foot? That's like using Raffi for your legal counsel. Raffi probably doesn't have an LLB but, still...

C01_n0nmgy.jpg

c02_hs2x2q.jpg
 
Yeah. I can see that you'll have to do image reconstruction "from the ground up".

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor

Back
Top