I'm Giving Away Structural Engineering for Free - Visit Your Wrath Upon Me 23

[KootK]

THE SHORT

I am giving away free, preliminary, residential structural engineering services to my neighbors and am interested in collecting negative opinions about that. Such opinions may not alter my course on this but are valuable to me none the less. I feel that I've thought this through fairly exhaustively but, then, it's things that you think you know front to back that tend to get you into trouble. Specifically:

1) Liability issues.

2) Ethical issues.

3) Doing my part to further foul up an already fouled up marketplace for our ilk.

THE LONG

I) The Motivation

I've always wanted some kid of volunteer "thing". My rational self believes that altruism is really thinly veiled selfishness but, still, I've never been able to shake the impulse. Unfortunately, I've long struggled to find a volunteer thing that I deem satisfactory. Once one's income reaches a certain level, it just make more sense to give money than time. Bill Gates needs to be running the Bill & Not Melinda Foundation, not collecting pop cans or manning the phones at the donation hotline. My situation is a much, much more modest version of that. At the same time, giving money isn't something that satisfies my itch in this arena. I want to do something.

I moved into a new neibgorhood last June that has a real chance of ending up being my forever neighborhood. Yay me. Since closing on the sale, my plan has been to seize this opportunity to offer my neighbors my high value expertise on a pro-bono basis. Things like looking at basement wall cracks, leaning retaining walls, deck guard rails, basement post removals... you know the drill. I was thinking Facebook but, recently, my neighborhood got set up on a social media platform developed just for Neighborhoods. And it's catching on like wildfire. So, a couple of months ago, I set this plan into motion for real.

II) The Deal

If you live in my community, I will do the following free of charge:

a) Come to your place one or more times to discuss your renovation dreams and structural concerns as they relate to your property.

b) Advise you, in general to terms, as to your renovation options and whether or not I feel that your structural concerns have merit.

c) Refer you to a couple of local guys to do any detailed engineering required for permitting, construction, etc.

d) Casually and jovially make it clear that the cost of my free help is my expectation that I'll not be getting sued for the consequences of any of my advice.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

What I will not do:

f) Accept any paid assignments.

g) Stamp or sign anything.

h) Prepare detailed, actionable drawings or specifications.

i) Have you sign a waiver of liability. I thought about that but don't really feel that it offers me any meaningful protection beyond [d] above.

III) My Appraisal of the Risk

j) Obviously, there still is some, particularly with stuff like cracked basement wall evaluations where someone might chose to not do something based on my advice.

k) I would say that I'm accepting a calculated risk in this instance. Of course, it's a calculated risk that I'm altogether unable to calculate with any accuracy, so there's that.

l) From a purely business perspective, this is foolish, no question. Although, interestingly, I've been offered tons of paid residential work as a result of this exercise. I turn it all down as promised. The head of the senior's association has actually turned out to be a retired, formerly quite prominent architect which has obvious potential from a networking perspective. That old adage about trying to be useful rather than trying to be ostensibly successful seems to have an oddly quick ROI.

IV) The Results

In a world full of disappointments, this has panned out great so far. I've met a bunch of my neighbors and I'm providing real, charitable value. I've even become a bit of a community celebrity for my being willing / stupid enough to do this. Our neighborhood has a very active senior's association and they've invited me to offer the same services within their cohort (who doesn't like free stuff?). The nature of my neighborhood is that there a lot of older folks here that are what I'd call "house rich". Their properties have octupled in value since 1807 but they are on modest, fixed incomes just the same. This development has taken something that felt good to me to begin with and amped up the feel good factor another 50%. Sometimes I even get milk and cookies, like Santa.

Will I regret my decision if I wind up getting myself sued out of having a livelihood with which to support my own family? You betcha. And that brings us back to the calculated risk part. To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.

 

[Rabbit12]

If you can get insurance this is a game changer for me. Not only that, but this could be a marketing ploy for a small shop. I know this isn't your angle, but for someone else it might be. It's kind of akin to lawyers that provide free consultations.

 

[MJB315]

This is a low value statement, but here goes:

THIS IS MY FAVORATE POST ON ENG-TIPS.COM

It's just delicious on so many levels. A few thoughts:

[ul]
[li]KootK -- I'm going in the way-back machine here...but it cues in my memory a thread where the community was discussing if a structural engineer is more like a surgeon or a carpenter. Meaning, are we paid for our expertise or our labor? You assessed that we (or at least our business models) act more like carpenters-- and struck me as true and it has stayed with me. You offering free expertise (but not labor) as a Neighborhood-Structural-Batman feels fine because well, it is. At least it feels like it is -- which probably means that you're right, and our profession is a labor-based one. [/li]<sp>


[li] It's hard to give to the community as a structural engineer -- because we're middle people. In the volleyball game of design and construction, we're the setters -- always dishing up the ball passed to us by the architect (or conceptual lead) to the contractors for a spike. So for a structural to be able to give to a community, we either have to go around asking if anyone wants a set (rarely) or go off-campus and support the community some other way -- which is a drag. Your approach makes sense to me.[/li]<sp>

[li] I laughed when I read your assessment of young engineers and mentorship. YA. I have spent several years as an university mentor, as a mentor for younger engineers and I have been spearheading a B-Corp devoted toward helping students with their process of discovering career paths and local careers. I recently left my role as a project engineer to join the faculty of a community college in order to further that B-Corp's mission, to learn more about the student and educational experience and see if I can move the needle. We can pull on countless threads there later -- but I agree with you. The typical student who is enrolled in a four-year engineering program (but not a practicing EIT) is very difficult to guide. A community college student and EIT are much, much easier to work with -- because they are on the tolerable sides of the Kruger-Dunning curve and are mostly still humble. But those juniors and seniors at a four year school though... very tricky. They pride themselves on being intelligent (which is dangerous for projects), they are over confident (which is unjustified), they are difficult to instruct (because all they want to do is build 3D models), and their decision to pursue a career path in engineering is often shaky or too-cute-by-a-half. Many students study engineering "because they got good grades in math" or "I like playing with legos" -- and I'm sorry, but those responses don't do it for me. So I'm with you. [/li] <sp>

[li] But, the main reason why I have decided to dedicated the better part of my life to do a deep dive down the career discovery bunny hole is that our society is tortured by it. Ask any student (or human) what "what they want to do when they group up" and most will squirm. Their parents squirm. Everyone squirms and is tourtured by the uncertainty of choosing a career path and enjoying their professional life. Above all, I believe that humans hate, hate, hate uncertainty -- and will do anything to lessen it. (Cue a different philosophical discussion here). [/li]<sp>

[/ul]

So, coming out of that flat spin and getting back to the original thrust of your post:

I think it's a good thing that you rock your yellow crocs and contribute to your local community by lessening your neighbor's uncertainty in the best way you know how.

I know that "no good deed goes punished" but whatever. Your consumption of banana bread will continue to increase and your neighbors will feel slightly less uncertain.

Which seem like delicious outcomes to me.

"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC

 

[KootK]

I'm grateful for your contribution MJB. There is much there that is of value to me, not least of which is knowing that someone else has found value in the conversation.

 

[KootK]

Defending yourself in court will possibly cost you money and will definitely will be a time commitment and headache.

That's a good point. I'm sure that I'd only have to go through that once before hanging up the pro-bono stuff altogether. As long as we're on the subject of crazy stuff that I intend to do, I plan to self represent should I ever find myself in court for something like that. You know, as long as we're not talking jail time etc.

I would challenge you on the basis of the type of volunteer work that you are pursuing. Some of my favorite memories were of being a student volunteer for Engineers Without Borders. I would have killed to have had a mentor with your insight in delivering the projects that I did.

Thanks for that. I'll look into the international opportunities a bit more seriously. Lomarandil does some excellent work of that variety and I've followed that with jealousy. It's definitely something that I wish that I'd done as a younger man but, then, as a younger man I had kids. I'm functionally empty nest now but, then, now I have a different set of constraints:

a) Mortgage.
b) Minor healthcare needs not particularly suited to developing world adventures.
c) Wife. Last year, I tried to move to NY for 8mo to do CA on a skyscraper. That got vetoed in short order.

I'm afraid that what I really need is an entire, second life to live. Just one more...

 

[phamENG]

I'm afraid that what I really need is an entire, second life to live. Just one more...

UVA Devision of Perceptual Studies....which is really just a rebranding of the Department of Parapsychology, which was a University sanctioned investigation into re-incarnation...

Maybe they'll help you out.

 

[TLHS]

As a structural engineer, I've actually had difficulty finding things like engineers without borders that I feel are actually helpful and work for my strengths. People in difficult areas don't need my help building houses, they know how to do that in their area better than I do. They don't need my help building a complicated steel structure, because if they have the money to do that they already have the money to design it. Plus they have local structural engineers that deserve to support that work if it's paid. I feel like practical engineering of a civil or structural nature is a very location specific item. I am going to give shitty advice about building a building on a different continent when I don't understand their local geology, climate, hazards, materials, building practices and societal needs.

That kind of organization doesn't exist for helping local people. I actually found something in the US that sounded interesting, that was co-ordinating pro-bono engineering with community groups, but it's not something that's in Canada. My big thing was wanting to train up for earthquake response, because I think it's something I have a good background for. Despite being in a hugely seismically active region, though, there's no organized system for that.

I very much understand this urge, but I'm also pretty anxious about just going and working with random people without a well defined set of limitations. I help friends on occasion, and even with that trust it can be tricky because they straight up don't have the context to work with limited advice. Even if you qualify things, they are taking it as the word of an engineer and reliable. Basically, I think it's a good thing to do, but my urge to make sure issues are being clearly handled by a responsible person would be screaming at me the whole time. I generally feel like I have to remain responsible for issues until I've handed that problem off to someone else who is capable of understanding and dealing with them, and if I haven't then it sticks around in the back of my head forever.

 

[NOLAscience]

I would describe my services along the line of, "Project assessment". Under that umbrella, you can assess "No change needed", "Fix it yourself", "Hire this contractor, or "Go see Mary Ann P.E. about it". I think that's a useful service. I'd keep any contract oral, not written, and say, several times, "An engineer would really need to study this to be sure, but...". When you leave, make it clear that you will NOT be studying the problem any further and if they want someone to study it, they should call Mary Ann!

 

[KootK]

I've got a horror story for y'all.

Back in 2008, my best childhood friend told me that his dojo (ninja stuff) wanted to remove some columns from their training area. Kids were accidentally kicking teleposts and such. He had a bunch of scrap steel angles and asked if I'd design a truss for him to facilitate the removal of the columns.

My friend was a very experienced structural welder recently released from prison for non-violent crimes. The martial arts teaching thing was kind of his path back to the light after a fashion. It meant a lot to him and was one of his only viable options for employment at the time. In his age bracket, he's actually one of the top martial artists in western Canada.

So yeah, some red flags there. The conversation went like this:

KootK: NO WAY can I stamp this thing.

Friend: Don't worry about it. The dojo owner owns the building and doesn't need a stamp.

KootK: Still, there's a lot to consider here. It's not just the truss but, also the existing masonry piers that it sits on, the footings, blah blay.

Friend: Look, just tell me the truss depth and web configuration to make the thing work. The angles are what they are and I'm just going to weld the snot out of everything anyhow.

KootK: No, still to dangerous for me, and the public.

Friend: You know full well that I'm doing this with or without your help. If you help, the little ninjas will be safer than if you don't, right?

KootK: fine, but my name can't be on anything and I'm limiting my scope to just the truss.

In the end, I realized that if I was in for a penny I had to be in for a pound. So I wound up designing the entire system. My friend was so proud of the work that he went and posted pictures of it on Facebook and tagged the truss "KootK" as if the truss were actually me.

How's that for discretion / no deed going unpunished? The red box below is full of CYA disclaimers that surely offered me no real protection at all.

 

[jmec87]

I would describe my services along the line of, "Project assessment".

This may help. If you are a professional engineer advertising that you are providing (free) structural engineering and then giving advice based on application of your structural engineering knowledge, the recipients of your advice (and everybody else who could be relevant, including APEGA, insurers, lawyers, etc.) are very likely to believe that you provided "engineering" and hold you to a professional engineering standard.

If you refer to the advice that you are providing as "preliminary project assessment not to be relied upon" or something similar, it may make it more difficult (although still not impossible) to impose engineering liabilities on you.

Thanks KootK for the entertaining discussion. Please update us if/when you hear back from APEGA.

 

[KootK]

I would describe my services along the line of, "Project assessment".

Thank for your input LOLA. I get where you're coming from liability wise but I would have two problems with that, the second of which is probably again related to my libertarian streak.

1) I feel that it would make for a crappy ad given the vagary of the term "Project Assessor". I feel that:

a) I'd wind up with fewer calls for structural stuff.

b) More calls for project management / contractor stuff that I wouldn't be helping with.

c) Fewer calls in general owing to confusion over exactly what it is that I'm offering.

2) I feel that this approach is a bit dishonest/deceptive. I am a structural engineer and I will be offering preliminary structural renovation & assessment advice. And I don't feel that I should have to be in the closet about any of that. Were I to find myself compelled to shield myself behind intentionally translucent language, I think that alone would tell me that it was time to let the idea go.

I want to walk proudly in the sun damn it! I am structural, hear me ROAR!!! Or whine, as the case may be.

 

[milkshakelake]

@KootK I couldn't read through all the posts since it's like a novel at this point, but I'll offer what I can. You asked for negative opinions, so I'll do that.

You will give advice that someone can act upon, which helps or hurts their lives. Then they can have problems, like structural and zoning issues. Who will take care of that when it happens? Are you or the owner to blame for that? Since you didn't provide drawings and sign/seal, the liability becomes ambiguous.

It's better to just not do it at that point. The laws and regulations don't favor being a nice person in Canada. There's also an ethical problem, which is giving free advice that could get someone else in trouble, like the home owner.

 

[KootK]

Thanks for your comments milkshakelake. At this point, I'd not expect anyone to have read the whole of this thread before responding. Classic TLDR.

 

[dik]

Free 'Engineering' in every specially marked box of 'Kootflakes'. I don't know why I thought of it... maybe a slow afternoon.

I think your approach is great, BTW...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[structuralCADspecialist]

Hi Kootk. I think your idea is... not a bad one at all. I have some suggestions:

I strongly suspect that you reside in the same province as me (you mentioned you're from Western Canada). I skimmed this post and I think it's been stated that helping with residential remodels/repairs is handing out charity to some of the province's wealthiest residents (maybe not so much in a small town). Do you think it would be more fun to work with small businesses start-ups instead? Commercial TI's might be a little more interesting than residential reno's/repairs; I used to work in an office that did these and they absolutely sucked at them - cost the would-be business owners a lot of money. As covid wraps up, economical engineering consultations will be invaluable to small businesses trying to start up. Not many engineers touch those jobs. And maybe you might get free goodies in return for helping out these small businesses. In the Lower Mainland there is not shortage of neat old buildings in queue for a retrofit of some kind. Having a second opinion is invaluable and would help keep the EOR honest.

***EDIT*** deleted a paragraph pertaining to mentorship - for good reason ;-)

You'd also be great on a committee of some sort. Or even (dare I say) a jury.

I might be a bit brash, but if you volunteer try doing something outside your comfort zone. It might end up being 1,000 times more gratifying. Doing residential jobs you can probably do in your sleep might not be the best use of your time.

 

[KootK]

Free 'Engineering' in every specially marked box of 'Kootflakes'. I don't know why I thought of it... maybe a slow afternoon.

I like it, I could use some new merch. I haven't flexed my graphical design muscles since Game of Thrones was the thing that the world was obsessing about. Feels like a century or two ago now...

 

[KootK]

I strongly suspect that you reside in the same province as me (you mentioned you're from Western Canada).

One province further from the pacific. Thanks for input on this, the startup TI approach is an interesting one that I'd not previously considered. Reasons that I likely won't pursue that in the near future include:

1) I'm targeting hyper local. Literally my neighborhood which is 90% homes and few pizza / dog grooming shops.

2) Unless I'm misunderstanding your intent, it seems to me that most TI work would benefit little from any preliminary structural assessment. "Yup, you'll need some slab cores and partition wall supports". I'd think that I'd have to get into the EOR details of it which would then have me worried more about liability screwing up the market for other engineers.

3) I don't really know how to seek out and identify worthy startups (other than myself). This is solvable of course.

...handing out charity to some of the province's wealthiest residents (maybe not so much in a small town).

That's a bit strong, the neighborhood's not that nice. It's probably more accurate to say that:

a) the neighborhood is solidly middle class and;

b) nobody here is in their home as a human trafficking stopover.

You'd also be great on a committee of some sort. Or even (dare I say) a jury.

Thanks for that. Committee work appeals to me a great deal. Unfortunately, I've kind of screwed myself on that. Now that I work independently, I have much less time for, and much less credibility to do, that kind of thing.

 

[NorthCivil]

My structural engineer wife loves home improvement shows. It annoys me to no end that, in the context of those shows, the structural engineer is always just some poorly dressed, charmless chump who does nothing more than confirm that the property brothers were right in assuming that a beam would be required there. We're better than that.

In the context of these shows? or in the context of reality?

lets not make something more of ourselves than we really are.

yes, we have some interesting skills, but to the vast majority who have to deal with us, we are nothing more than another barrier of red tape to cross

 

[KootK]

In the context of these shows? or in the context of reality?

Definitely in the context of the shows. In reality, it is my belief that the structural engineers with big, interesting personalities are often the best among us, starting with Leslie Robertson and working one's way down. Yeah, we often are the commoditized, necessary evil. I feel that we can do better.

 

[Huevo]

Late to the party but...

My wife is an architect and we are hit up constantly for free design work. The only times it seems to be worth the effort is when the recipient is actually appreciative for the advice. A lot of the time folks just want to hear what they want. When the truth doesn't match expectations, those relationships suffer. It's hard to know ahead of time if someone wants truthful advice or just wants you to support whatever half-baked idea they had in the shower that morning.

 

[STrctPono]

In speaking of appreciativeness...

A coworker asked my boss to design his house a few years back. My boss gives me the job. The design is pretty intense. Large two story structural steel moment frame in the front of the house with large glass windows. It's a really nice abode. Our relationship turns sour during the design phase because I wasn't working fast enough (partly justified on his part but I was doing this for free in my spare time... partly because he's just a power-hungry jerk that waits for no man.) In the end he never ends up building the house. 2 years later he wants it redone to a more mellow design. My boss approaches me and asks me nicely to redesign the home for our coworker. So I redesign it (mostly wood with very little steel this time) in 2 weeks time and in the end the coworker still hates me and won't speak to me.

People showing appreciation definitely goes a long way with this type of work.