I'm Giving Away Structural Engineering for Free - Visit Your Wrath Upon Me 23

[KootK]

THE SHORT

I am giving away free, preliminary, residential structural engineering services to my neighbors and am interested in collecting negative opinions about that. Such opinions may not alter my course on this but are valuable to me none the less. I feel that I've thought this through fairly exhaustively but, then, it's things that you think you know front to back that tend to get you into trouble. Specifically:

1) Liability issues.

2) Ethical issues.

3) Doing my part to further foul up an already fouled up marketplace for our ilk.

THE LONG

I) The Motivation

I've always wanted some kid of volunteer "thing". My rational self believes that altruism is really thinly veiled selfishness but, still, I've never been able to shake the impulse. Unfortunately, I've long struggled to find a volunteer thing that I deem satisfactory. Once one's income reaches a certain level, it just make more sense to give money than time. Bill Gates needs to be running the Bill & Not Melinda Foundation, not collecting pop cans or manning the phones at the donation hotline. My situation is a much, much more modest version of that. At the same time, giving money isn't something that satisfies my itch in this arena. I want to do something.

I moved into a new neibgorhood last June that has a real chance of ending up being my forever neighborhood. Yay me. Since closing on the sale, my plan has been to seize this opportunity to offer my neighbors my high value expertise on a pro-bono basis. Things like looking at basement wall cracks, leaning retaining walls, deck guard rails, basement post removals... you know the drill. I was thinking Facebook but, recently, my neighborhood got set up on a social media platform developed just for Neighborhoods. And it's catching on like wildfire. So, a couple of months ago, I set this plan into motion for real.

II) The Deal

If you live in my community, I will do the following free of charge:

a) Come to your place one or more times to discuss your renovation dreams and structural concerns as they relate to your property.

b) Advise you, in general to terms, as to your renovation options and whether or not I feel that your structural concerns have merit.

c) Refer you to a couple of local guys to do any detailed engineering required for permitting, construction, etc.

d) Casually and jovially make it clear that the cost of my free help is my expectation that I'll not be getting sued for the consequences of any of my advice.

e) Let you know that my insurance has an exclusion clause explicitly omitting coverage for any work that I do without remuneration.

What I will not do:

f) Accept any paid assignments.

g) Stamp or sign anything.

h) Prepare detailed, actionable drawings or specifications.

i) Have you sign a waiver of liability. I thought about that but don't really feel that it offers me any meaningful protection beyond [d] above.

III) My Appraisal of the Risk

j) Obviously, there still is some, particularly with stuff like cracked basement wall evaluations where someone might chose to not do something based on my advice.

k) I would say that I'm accepting a calculated risk in this instance. Of course, it's a calculated risk that I'm altogether unable to calculate with any accuracy, so there's that.

l) From a purely business perspective, this is foolish, no question. Although, interestingly, I've been offered tons of paid residential work as a result of this exercise. I turn it all down as promised. The head of the senior's association has actually turned out to be a retired, formerly quite prominent architect which has obvious potential from a networking perspective. That old adage about trying to be useful rather than trying to be ostensibly successful seems to have an oddly quick ROI.

IV) The Results

In a world full of disappointments, this has panned out great so far. I've met a bunch of my neighbors and I'm providing real, charitable value. I've even become a bit of a community celebrity for my being willing / stupid enough to do this. Our neighborhood has a very active senior's association and they've invited me to offer the same services within their cohort (who doesn't like free stuff?). The nature of my neighborhood is that there a lot of older folks here that are what I'd call "house rich". Their properties have octupled in value since 1807 but they are on modest, fixed incomes just the same. This development has taken something that felt good to me to begin with and amped up the feel good factor another 50%. Sometimes I even get milk and cookies, like Santa.

Will I regret my decision if I wind up getting myself sued out of having a livelihood with which to support my own family? You betcha. And that brings us back to the calculated risk part. To an extent, the libertarian streak in me just refuses to be cowed by the realities of my marketplaces litigiousness.

 

[Guppyz]

Why not get involved in educational projects for the next generation? Local popsicle bridge building competitions are held in almost all areas at a variety of age ranges. You could even get in-contact with your local university for thing like the Canadian National Steel Bridge Competition.I had the opportunity in university to compete in this competition and it pulled my interest into structures. I think both option provide deep meaningful connection with local community as well as leave you high and dry from any legal or ethical issues.

 

[KootK]

Your Honor, Duck Foot stopped by and told me that it wasn't a bearing wall. That's when I engaged Raffi to represent me before the court...

 

[Brad805]

I am curious, do you not want some time to think about non-engineering problems? You can get involved in the Rotary club or others along that line and give back to the community. Sadly, I do not think the residential world will improve given the lack of understanding of laypeople. Way too many television programs have ruined peoples understanding what things cost or how things go together. I am constantly baffled by that. We can go into a grocery store and have 50,000 items to choose from, yet when it comes to construction people think there are no choices or all solutions cost the same. Giving back to neighbors and being neighborly is a good idea, but I would be reluctant to go beyond that.

As for the liability question at hand, it sounds like a decent neighborhood. Most of us with any experience can spot the nutballs to stay away from after a few questions. Aside from the association rules that would not be the most concerning question of this proposition. There is a realtor in my rotary club that started calling me after hours. Funny, I did not return all the calls.

 

[azcats]

 

[KootK]

Why not get involved in educational projects for the next generation?

This keeps coming up so I'll address it directly, consequences be damned. I'm not interested in mentorship stuff because:

1) I already do a ridiculous amount of junior engineer mentoring, both here and in the real world.

2) I want so be of service to people in my neighborhood. To my knowledge, there are only two structural engineers in my neighborhood and the other one is really more of a mentor to me.

3) I want to be of service to people that are not structural engineers. Like I said, I feel that I've got that covered and I'm looking to branch out.

4) Laziness. Steel bridge and all that jazz is a pretty big time commitment.

5) I don't like student engineers. I know, that's a horrible thing to say but, the older that I get, the more true that becomes. I'll love up a working EIT like nobody's business but I've got no use for those that haven't yet walked the walk. They're just too far beneath me in terms of their experience profile and expertise for meaningful interaction. One of the best things this site ever did, in my opinion, is set up the designated Student's Forum. I never go there, ever, and don't like to see them escape their confines.

 

[Guppyz]

2) there are only two structural engineers in my neighborhood and the other one is really more of a mentor to me.

Have you approached the other engineer and gauged their opinion on the subject matter?

 

[KootK]

I am curious, do you not want some time to think about non-engineering problems?

No, actually. I know, that sounds pretty lame. One of my very favorite things to do in all the world is to contemplate engineering problems without actually having to prosecute their solutions. Doing this in the service of other people is nothing short of dreamy for me.

You can get involved in the Rotary club or others along that line and give back to the community

I'll check it out and may be interested if I feel that they have a meaningful presence in my hood.

My dogged insistence here on doing something at a very local level is, in part, a function of my history. My wife and I were both single parents for a long while before coming together Brady Bunch style. As a result, we've been late bloomers financially. My current home represents my first ever experience of not being a renter. And it's been looooong overdue.

Renting comes with a stigma of sorts with respect to how your neighborhood views you, and how you view your neighborhood. By definition, you've got a fly by night aspect to your presence within your community. Now, for the fist time and at considerable expense, I find myself as a homeowner in what I consider to be a truly fine neighborhood. Maybe a forever neighborhood as there's room for my parents and they like it here too. I yearn to be a joiner within the neighborhood in a way that I've really not been in the past. I may even dabble in micro-politics at some point.

 

[KootK]

Have you approached the other engineer and gauged their opinion on the subject matter?

He's aware of what I'm doing. He wouldn't make for meaningful bounce, however, given that:

1) We're pretty close personal friends and;

2) He's the primary beneficiary of most of the residential work that I send packing. I provide options, always, but I've no doubt that my preference bubbles to the surface.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

brute physical labor

I mean, maybe this is the way to go? Offer free labor and apply your engineering to help out with the job? Someone wants a porch built, help build the porch and give them advice on how to attach the ledger, flashing, which screws to use, member sizes, etc. Good exercise too.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL, CO) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[Guppyz]

On top of the ethical conflicts jmec87 listed above having the primary beneficiary of your actions being a close friend might be the nail in the coffin for an ethics review board. I would protect the future interest of my family and not my neighbors by avoiding engaging in this activity.

 

[KootK]

I mean, maybe this is the way to go?

Hard pass on the physical labor.

On top of the ethical conflicts jmec87 listed above having the primary beneficiary of your actions being a close friend might be the nail in the coffin for an ethics review board.

I feel that's pretty unlikely. Like I said, I recommend several options to the owner and accept kickbacks from nobody. Besides, it's not like the owner doesn't have Google and a phone book.

 

[CANPRO]

KootK, congrats on your homeownership.

I don't see anything wrong with what you're doing. Particularly because:
[ol 1]
[li]It sounds like you're not offering engineering services, you're just discussing options. I don't see this being different than having an initial meeting with a residential client to discuss their renovation. You might offer up some general suggestions on how their project may develop, but nothing official [/li]
[li]It sounds like you're not accepting the detailed design work (if required), which removes any potential conflict - some might think you're trying to sell your services where they might not be required, but as it stands you have no potential financial gains. Someone mentioned that it could be seen as a conflict because you're directing business to a friend - I have lots of friends that are great engineers, am I not supposed to recommend them to people who need engineering services?[/li]
[/ol]

At worst, you're a terrible businessman who never gets past the preliminary discussion with potential residential clients. At the same time, you're being a friendly neighbor and getting to know some people in the process.

I work for a contractor and I get lots of questions from co-workers about renovations, additions, etc... to their homes. I take the same approach as you - I offer up free guidance, but I make it clear that it is just a preliminary discussion of their options and at some point they need to engage a consultant to carry out the detailed design work. This at least gives them more accurate expectations/budgets to work with before they start spending money on consultants/contractors.

 

[Ron247]

KootK, what you are considering is very admirable but I would start out by just helping neighbors but not "advertising" much right now. Get to know your neighbors better first. I have lived in a lot of places, and I have never lived anywhere that the entire subdivision was full of nice people who would not do you wrong when the circumstances were present that screwing you out of $10 saves them $5. There has to be some in the neighborhood with "situational ethics".

One of the first things I would do is try to see who would help me when I needed help that they could lend a hand on. You would be surprised how short that list might be. My best friend has helped 3 neighbors that border his land (11 acres) several times each. I know the value of the work he has done for free with his equipment (Bobcat, dump truck, tractors) has been well over $2,000 each time he helped for each of the 3 neighbors. He did not even charge for fuel. Mostly hurricane related cleanup and routine maintenance when you own several acres. His house got struck by lightning last month. $30,000 worth of damage. Believe it or not, he owns 4 houses but has never bought insurance. As long as I have known him, no insurance except liability on cars. All of his neighbors know he has no insurance, and not one of them has helped. He is repairing his house himself. He is 65 and can only work about 5 minutes standing up before he has to set down for 10 minutes because of his knee. I helped him repair all the structural damage (had to rebuild 6 trusses). There has been 4 other friends that drove 4 to 5 hours each way to help him (including me and my wife) because he has always helped us when we needed help. But his neighbors for the last 7 years, no help at all. These are estate lots, houses worth $500k or more and 2 of the neighbors are about 15 to 20 years younger than those of use who helped. I am the youngest at 64.

They did offer comments like, "The best thing I can do to help is stay out of the way" and "Wow, you should have bought insurance, they would pay to fix all this". They did not even help clean the place up which anyone could help with. So,, I am waiting for their next "neighborly need".

 

[KootK]

Thanks for the input gentleman. I think that I will pull the advertising until I vet a couple of the issues raised here.

 

[TLHS]

Koot, have you looked into the Engineers Canada Secondary Liability Insurance that at least a bunch of the provincial associations have signed on to?

https://engineerscanada.ca/services...ts/secondary-professional-liability-insurance

It includes:
"Incidental professional consulting services: You consult informally with someone in your community, including friends and neighbours, and they bring a claim against you."

Not sure if that's to the extent of what you're proposing, though.

 

[KootK]

Thanks for that THLS! I was aware of the existence of the supplementary insurance but not aware that it specifically addressed things like this. That may be just what I need to bridge my insurance gap on this.

 

[phamENG]

A few months back I had pondered a charitable exercise. I was doing a job for a realtor in an economically depressed part of town (the sort you don't go to after dark). Looking beyond the property I was working on to the surrounding houses (old, once stately homes converted to quad-plexes and, if my intuition about the one I was in was right, human trafficking stopovers), it occurred to me that most of those tenants likely have little recourse in terms of unsafe maintenance of the houses. I saw several cantilever balconies that didn't quite meet the threshold for condemnation yet, but I know they won't see any maintenance...ever. Visible wood rot in trim that probably indicates infestation in the walls themselves. All the 'usual' stuff.

I'd like to find a way to work with some sort of fair housing group to provide a few hours here or there - maybe get other local firms to donate time - so these folks who live hand to mouth have a way of accessing much needed professional services. It's on my to do list...someday...

I totally understand what you're trying to do KootK. Hopefully you can sort out the ethical, legal, and insurance related issues raised here. The only way I was able to meet my neighbors was by my dogs escaping and pestering the pigs, horses, and chickens on the farms on the other side of the wood behind the house. (Not the best introduction, to be sure, but it's worked out.)

 

[KootK]

...if my intuition about the one I was in was right, human trafficking stopovers

Well jeez... that's almost as noble as me trying to help retired accountants build outdoor pizza ovens for patio season.

The routes you're considering may indeed be the best. That said, some other possible options to solve the liability issues if that becomes the hang-up:

1) As you may know, it's possible to be a "named insured" on somebody else's policy for a limited scope of work. Maybe you could be on the city's insurance for this.

2) Maybe the city would simply be willing to review and stamp your efforts.

3) Worse come to worst, I know a guy with horrible business sense that might be willing to soak up that liability for you.

The only way I was able to meet my neighbors was by my dogs escaping and pestering the pigs, horses, and chickens on the farms on the other side of the wood behind the house.

Mrs KootK forced me to get a dog against my will and that's been far and away the best means of getting to know folks in the 'hood: both the dog lovers and the people that don't want us to evacuate on their lawns. I figure one of the benefits to me of what I'm doing is that, if I ponied up giving somebody free structural engineering advice, honor pretty much demands that they let my dog shit on their lawn in perpetuity.

@Everybody: I think that I've got what I need here, and I'm grateful for it. If anybody else would like to discuss their own ideas for volunteer work and the associated business issues, consider that KootK approved. Interestingly, this may be the fastest that I've ever seen a thread get to triple digits (almost). It was probably that deliberately inflammatory thread title.

 

[phamENG]

Yeah - the closet sized 'rooms' in the attic with no windows and padlock latches on the hallway side of the doors sent a bit of a chill up my spine while I was inspecting the place. We have some pretty rotten eggs around here, unfortunately.

deliberately inflammatory thread title

Isn't that all of your threads?

 

[KootK]

Well, ancestry.com did reveal that I'm a distant relation of P.T. Barnum. But, hey, it's better than "HELP!!! THING FOR PERSON!!!"