Important Applicant Skills, revisited

[franzh]

To add fuel to my previous post, I would like to toss in modern grammer, or the lack of it. Do you judge the applicant by their command of the spoken language?

Take a look at this:
"Me and her gone to the store." Followed by "Me and him done this."
ARGGGHHH!
When I listen to what I think is a skilled professional and this simple comment comes out, they lose all credibility with me. Am I alone? I am told I am too critical, that this is the way people talk today (sorry, not me).
Choose your language of choice, I am sure it is universal.
Franz

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[IRstuff]

I'd agree.

To me, there's a some notion that a good engineer does not stop at simply getting an answer, but also understanding of why? and what the correct answer should be. This means that he should be using English properly.


Additionally, using English incorrecly during presentations could certainly diminish the quality and acceptability of one's presentations.

TTFN

 

[ivymike]

hmmm, grammetical errors are not okay? how about spelleeng?

 

[TheTick]

There has to be some factual evidence to support the theory that spelling ability and intelligence are almost completely unrelated. (This from one with a reputation as an excellent speller.)

My high school physics teacher would base part of our lab grades on organization and penmanship. Her point was that in our future professional lives, most of our peers' and customers' first and strongest impressions of us would be from our writing.

I haven't forgotten. Here's to you, Mrs. Westphal.

 

[GregLocock]

Back in the days of typewritten reports, one very credible engine company in the UK used to have a policy of allowing NO spelling errors in reports.

Hours of fun for the typists.

Their reason was, if there's a spelling mistake in a word that indicates a lack of proofreading, admittedly corrigible by context. But what happens to a typo in a number? The final reader cannot easily check whether it should have been 1372.4 or 1327.4



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[HVAC68]

Well, grammar is definitely important. I won't select a guy if he is poor in spoken English (read language). Sometimes, he may end up conveying a wrong meaning to others, thereby negating all the good work he may have done.

HVAC68

 

[HgTX]

Franz--sounds like you'd like this thread:
thread1010-104704
("writing quality" thread in the English forum)

[tangent]
I've wondered about that "me & him" construction a lot. Why is it that people will say "me & him went" when they won't say "me went" or "him went"? I don't really hear that much from adults; I remember getting corrected for saying it myself when I was little. What I do hear a lot from adults, and drives me nuts, is the hypercorrection that puts "I" in object position (like "Send it to Joe or I"). Though from a linguistic standpoint even that one is fascinating, because it's a hypercorrection of the very tendency franzh talks about, and so in a way just further reinforces the reality of that particular construction. I have just now written a linguist to ask. I shall somehow refrain from posting my findings here.
[/tangent]

Hg

 

[epoisses]

"Me and her gone to the store."
"Me and him done this."

Errr... this is either due to a spectacular lack of grammar skills, I would almost say a blind spot in the brain,
or a spectacular lack of interest in how a sentence is supposed to be constructed.

If this interest in how things are supposed to be constructed extends itself beyond sentences toward objects, I would be hesitant to let this person engineer my project.

 

[PSE]

One of the keys to the engineering profession is the capability of communicating technical information so that others may make use of it. Spelling and grammar should be considered important (in any language). It can be difficult enough to proof your own work. Would you want to have to go through the work of someone who either cannot or refuses to use basic grammar and syntax? Would you hire a proof reader just to check that person's work? Would you want them to do client presentations?

Regards,

 

[zdas04]

In the final analysis this topic is pretty easy. Regardless of societal "norms" of poor grammar and/or spelling, if you are in a position to hire someone you are perfectly justified in rejecting them for their lack of interest in developing language skills that you find acceptable.

If the schools don't teach these skills (and many don't) then you'll have a clear indication that an applicant is a "self starter" who can master skills in spite of the school system if they speak and write well.

Both of my sons went through school systems that had de-emphasized grammar and spelling. Both (finally) decided that they didn't like being grouped with the illiterate lumps of their generation and have taken steps on their own to overcome the handicap of a lousy education. Now they both speak fairly well and can get close enough to a correct spelling for Bill Gates to guess the word they want to use. I believe that these efforts will (and should) be rewarded in the job market.

David

 

[TheTick]

In the U.S., foreign-born doctors are required to pass an English proficiency test to get licensed. The test has verbal and written components.

I worked with more than a few foreign-born engineers that have an outstanding command of written English, enough to embarrass many natives.

 

[IRstuff]

we went

me & him = we

me & him went

TTFN

 

[HgTX]

Ah, but me & him = us! Us didn't went either.

Accusatives R us. I mean, "us" is accusative.

Hg

 

[epoisses]

It really escapes me how an engineer who is unable to properly construct a phrase that a 3-year old can say, could ever be able to design anything complicated. I wouldn't even trust him to get a coffee for me.

 

[MintJulep]

Some allowance may be granted for errors of spoken grammar if the interview is conducted in a language other than the applicant's native tounge.

However, poor grammer in one's native tongue is indicative of a number of things, none flattering.

 

[HgTX]

epoisses--it's a different skill set, and really is more of a social phenomenon than a measure of intelligence. What's seen as grammatically incorrect in the dialect of one social class is normal and rule-governed in another.

So it becomes more like choice of clothing. Most people whose everyday speech is not that of the status group are perfectly capable of using the status dialect when they need to, especially if they're well-educated and have had plenty of contact in circles that speak the status dialect. If they haven't picked up by the time they're on the job market that there is in fact a status form of speech (and writing), they haven't been paying attention or don't care (or are making a form of political statement). It may not be fair that their dialect isn't the one that's considered "correct", but that's irrelevant in business.

Hg

 

[cardoso115]

You are right, spoken and written skills are very important. Specially in a technical area like Engineering. And we must admit that, as individuals high a so called higher education must stand up to the title in every way possible.

I am Portuguese and I think my English is not the worst I've seen around. A good thing is that in my country we use subtitles and very few engineering books are translated to my native tongue, so I get some advantage from it.

 

[epoisses]

HgTX,

Well... yes, you made a good point there if there's a language (which I'm not familiar with, I guess) in which "me and him" is correct.

As a matter of fact (undermining my earlier post even further), I think it's equally desirable that engineers be able to not only speak "properly" but also be able to express themselves in redneck or whatever the local dialect may be, to be a credible discussion partner for any local slang speakers "out there in the plant".

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

On the subject of dialectical translation, I'm reminded of an example of 'translating' between Manager and Geek:

Manager: "The project has to be finished and ready to present by Monday, no matter what."
Translater to Geek: "We need more power to the engines, Scotty! You'll have to stay until we get it."
Geek to Translater: "Aye, Cap'n, but we need more dilithium crystals!"
Translater to Manager: "He wants overtime pay."




"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[HgTX]

epoisses--that's just it. What's incorrect in one circle is perfectly correct in another, or they wouldn't say it. (In other words, there is a natural language rule to govern it.) Your comment about being able to speak redneck may undermine your earlier comment but it doesn't undermine the initial thesis of the thread--that people should be willing and able to adjust their language to fit the situation, whether it's toward or away from the standard.

Hg