Important job applicant skills 5

[franzh]

I was recently on a job interview panel listening to job prospects. I was dismayed at the quality of candidates, (we were looking for a BSME minimum, with emphasis on engine combustion studies).

I was not especially displeased at their academic performance, however their presentation appearance (not professional looking, ie: jeans, shirts not tucked in, no ties, no jackets, several not having shaved recently), but overlooking that, their communication skills were abhorrent. I couldn’t get an answer without the “’know what I mean” or “see what I’m say’n” in almost every sentence. I frequently work with college graduates and understand their dress styles and lack of funds to buy professional clothing for job interviews. In what should be the most important step of a college graduates career, appearance is critical.

This job offered premium compensation (starting at $45,000 USD with benefits), moving allowances, spousal job relocation assistance, but we were looking for 3.5 GPA or better candidates. The client offered $10,000 more for either a MSME or a BSME with an MBA. Note that this is the starting offer and the client frequently worked up from this point. I saw one PhD. (28 years old) receive and accept an offer of $72,000, but he was a 4.0 GPA with relative study experience. He was very professional in both his appearance, presentation, academics, and a former US Army officer (undergraduate while in the US Army).

After the interviews were concluded, we compiled our worksheets and noticed a common thread: The candidates who presented better verbal and communication skills and first impressions but not as well in their skills areas scored higher than poorly prepared (visual and first impression candidates) who had better GPA’s and relative skills. Applicants from outside of the US seemed to have more concern on their presentation appearance than US students (I am in the US). Former military scored better than the general applicant.

When I was teaching full time, we conducted mock job interviews and critiqued our students in all areas. Towards the end of my program, I began to notice a definite change in personal concern for appearance and applicant apathy. At one point, I began to wonder if they just don’t care if they get the job.

Care to comment?
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
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[PSE]

First impressions are of prime importance while interviewing. Not only are you being judged on technical competence but also personality and the ability to smoothly integrate into the company. Physical appearance is your first chance to get an interview going right or wrong. Even before the conversation starts, the interviewer is evaluating the candidate.

If you show up and give a poor impression you are not going to do well regardless of skill. In a campus or job fair setting, you might actually hurt other chances as interviewers from different firms will talk to each other and compare candidate impressions.

Regards,

 

[BobPE]

atrichoke:

If you don't mind me asking, how old are you?



IRstuff:

When I need books, I like the ratty covered ones cause they are cheaper....LOL....But I know what you are trying to say....


BobPE

 

[franzh]

I guess all one has to do is to look at Japan, where etiquette is of prime importance. One small gesture, one wrong word, and protocol is violated. Not that I necessarily approve of such strict standards, but in a professional workplace, with two identical employees, one with a professional attire / appearance/ demeanor, and the other with sloppy / unkempt / non-professional appearance, and a client will tend to gravitate to the more professional appearing person.
Occasionally, when my boss and I make a site visit, and I just happen to dress more upscale, I tend to get more “respect” than he, although it is clear who is the superior.
Recently, on two consecutive days, I was told to make a surprise site visit on a day I was moving offices. I had on grubby clothes, sneakers, and a sweatshirt. I had to provide identification and was told I needed an escort around the facility. The next day, I returned with my “regular clothes”. I was treated with courtesy and was allowed full non-controlled access.
Artichoke is correct, one should not pre-judge by appearance, and that the workplace is indeed more casual (all one has to do is look at photos taken in the 20’s and 30’s with workers showing up for laborer jobs wearing ties and hats, automobile assembly line technicians also with the tie/hat combo). I rarely wear a tie to work unless I have advance notice of a vital meeting or if I am making a professional presentation. My favorite work clothes is jeans with a polo-type shirt.
Thanks all for your input.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[COKA]

One should not pre-judge by appearance, but there are limits! I always made sure that I look decent during interviews or business meetings. It may not seem this way to all, but if you care about your appearance and the impression that you will leave, you will care about the company that you want to work for. An extra hour of making sure you look clean and un-wrinkly gives out the impression that you "care" about yourself, which leads to the assumption that you will care about the way you come out during meetings, and what and how you speak and so on. There is nothing wrong with wearing jeans and steel toed boots, but if those jeans are ripped and the boots look like you came out from a dust storm, whell that speaks for itself.

I graduated from a COOP program, where we had 4 work terms to do, and therefore at least 4 interviews to go through. Let me tell you, the first interview, it was so-so for everyone, but by the last one, we all had interview suits. Somebody mentioned that it should be thought in school, you bet it should be!

Coka

 

[IRstuff]

Ratty books usually imply lots of use, so a ratty used book MIGHT be good and useful, or it might simply have been owned by a slob.

Ditto for an applicant. I've known some extremely intelligent people who were utter slobs and oblivious to the whole concept of personal hygiene (you know what I mean). One guy at a former company looked and smelled like a car mechanic most of the time, but was a very good designer of high-speed electronic circuits.

However, I'd argue that they were exceptions to the rule.

And, given that most schools will at least given every potential graduate a checklist and possibly a workshop on interviewing, there is no real excuse for looking ratty at an interview.

The only reason, would be someone who has utter contempt for the process or thinks he's so smart that employers should simply hire him; sight unseen and with crappy grades to boot

TTFN

 

[sms]

I just did a job interview a couple weeks ago. I wore a Sunday go to meeting suit with a really sharp red tie on a bright white strarched shirt, and black dress shoes. I looked like a preacher! The interview was a panel type with several people asking questions, most of them wearing blue jeans and polo shirts. The job was an industrial position, and I was happy to see that the typical mode of dress in the office was jeans, but I did not regret for one instant wearing my best suit. A resume and a interview are opportunities to advertise yourself, and just like any other advertising you need to make the product as attractive as possible. In the case of job hunting, the product is you!

 

[PSE]

I have found it useful at times to ask ahead what would be considered appropriate attire for the interview. I then step it up a notch to be on the safe side. I had found out (the hard way) previously that one companies view of business casual differs from another (especially on Fridays). At one interview I had the HR director said "come as you are" but the manager I interviewed with was noticeably uncomfortable and the meeting did not go well. I had appeared in boat shoes without socks (as what was then "in vogue" at the time during summer months). The position went to a different candidate.

 

[strokersix]

One interview I went for began with dinner the evening before. The HR person setting up the interview specifically stated "no tie" for the dinner. When I arrived with no tie, my dining partners were wearing ties. I still haven't figured out whether that was a communication gap, some sort of test, or nothing at all. It puzzles me still.

 

[ctopher]

Whenever you are invited to job releasted dinner, always bring a tie ... either wear it or have it in your pocket.

 

[MadMango]

Confidence is a big factor in any interview. Now there is a difference in being confident in your skills and ability and being arrogant. There’s a fine line between the two to be sure. A third shade of confidence is “perceived BS” on the behalf of the interviewer.

If you are not sure about your own value and skills and what you can provide to a prospective employer, then the employer is not going to feel secure in hiring you. Granted confidence also comes with work experience, but if you can look the interviewer(s) in the eye, talk to them directly, look comfortable, then your confidence level will look higher.

Also being observant can help greatly. Before the interview, research the company you are applying for. Know what their core product or service is. Know what their customer base is and be prepared to talk about that during the interview. When you arrive, take a look around at other employees, the condition of office furniture, general tidiness. All of these things can be indicators of the type of culture the company has, and you should use this information when formulating your responses during the interview.

I interviewed once for a company that made high-output transceivers for the FBI and forestry services. There were inspirational and safety posters all over the place. During the interview I was asked if I knew what “SMD” was (this was back in ’90). Luckily for me I remembered seeing one of their posters that talked about ESD hazards and surface mounted devices. I put 2 and 2 together and responded with the correct answer. Observation can be a great tool.

[green]"But what... is it good for?"[/green]
Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM, 1968, commenting on the microchip.
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[IRstuff]

strokersix,
perhaps it was a test to see if you would go the extra mile ;-)

TTFN

 

[IRstuff]

Addendum,

Many companies are interested in people that will put in extra effort, which can be manifested as to whether you are low-side or high-side compliant.

So, if you are given a requirement and you give an extra 10% rather than the minimum, that can be a critical difference to ultimate customer satisfaction and hence influence the company's performance.

TTFN

 

[GregLocock]

sms, I hadn't bothered posting to this thread, as I thought the answer was obvious. You got very close, but here's my take.

Interviewing is basically a process whereby the interviewee is selling themselves to the interviewer. This process starts with your resume (CV), and your covering letter and your telephone interview, if you have one. Finally you get to the interview. Probably you have invested 20 hours in this process so far, why on earth would you screw up this selling job by poor physical presentation, with a notional one hour extra of investment? It has got to be the most cost effective way of improving the odds.

Admittedly, since leaving uni, I've never worn a suit, but jacket and tie for interviews, always, even in Sydney in a miasmatic summer.





Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[ScottyUK]

I'm probably one of the unusual ones at work. I'm the only Chartered Engineer on site, except the station director, and the only one from the electrical discipline (he's a mech). I wear a tie once in a blue moon - usually for a wedding, or for an interview somewhere else - and invariably am in a boiler suit upon arrival at work. The outside of my site coat is so scruffy that it walks beside me. I don't bother having a shave every day.

However:

- I'm supposedly the most technically skilled engineer on site.
- I iron my shirts, and have a clean one each day.
- I shower every day, once to arrive at work clean, and once to wash work off me afterwards.
- I'm courteous and professional on the phone.
- I smarten myself up when dealing with external visitors.


I am tired of the office politics and watching the management wannabees crawling over each other like cockroaches on a pile of dung as they strive to be noticed for their exceptional indifference. I once asked the HR Manager of the day "But why would I want to be anything like you people?" when asked about management aspirations. Asking a colleague promoted way beyond his ability whether he suffered from delusions of adequacy just slipped past my lips last year. I have no time for fools, and am seen as outspoken. Being right and outspoken frustrates them further, as there is little comeback.

I enjoy my job and I am good at it. That is a nice state to be in, and I am content. Now about my pay raise...



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[HgTX]

Perhaps strokersix's tie story was indeed a test to see if he would go the extra mile, but then again if he'd shown up wearing a tie, maybe they would have held it against him for failure to follow directions! I guess that's where having a tie in a pocket comes in, but a woman who'd made a slacks vs. skirt decision based on similar advice wouldn't really be able to do much about it.

Hg

 

[GregLocock]

Well you could always follow the Muslim women and wear both. Then you could ditch whichever was least inappropriate. Might get a bit hot until you decide which way to go.

I'm fascinated by this 'interview by social interrogation' technique. I've been on the receiving end twice, and failed to get through to the next interview stage both times. No skin off my nose, the companies who were looking for /engineers/ got what they wanted.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[Ron]

I interview a fair number of individuals, from technicians to administrative to engineers. I am not as strict about clothing (though it must be in good taste, clean, and at the least casually presentable...jeans and shorts are inapproriate, even here in the warm climes). I always like to see something written from the individual (at minimum, the resume and preferably a contact letter).

In my business we put out a lot of paperwork (reports, test results, etc.), and it must be correct. I look for attention to detail in the written work as they have surely had time to reflect and edit the work. I'm less harsh on the spoken interview as I understand that some individual might be a bit apprehensive in the interview process, though I also use it as a measure of their capability under pressure.

The bottom line to all of this is that if the individual's personality fits and they are reasonably presentable, I'll look then at their technical skills.

 

[Tobalcane]

Well let me flip the coin here. When I go on interviews I always wear a suit and tie, but for the interviewers (full grown men and women), they seem to be always wearing from causal (khakis and polo shirt) to street (jeans and T shirt). I always feel over dressed. Now for these kids (not to defend them), may be they have been on other job interviews and saw how today’s business attire is and just simply thought that “well may be I should dress the same way”. We are not in the suit and tie days anymore and because of generation X, we started with dress down Fridays and then went to dress down every days. Sometimes I feel silly being fully dressed and the guy across from me who is interviewing is in T shirt, jeans, and sneakers.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

 

[someonesdad]

I think back on what I was like when young (cocky, dogmatic, and know-it-all) and can see why some of those kids behaved and appeared the way they did. Of course, the rest of us senior people know those kids were just continuing their education outside of school; they just didn't know it. Nor did they realize the tuition was more expensive than their college education. :^)

I interviewed quite a few people in the 80's both as a manager and an engineer and have to say that personal appearance wasn't a big part of the equation, although I don't ever remember seeing any slobs. The two key things addressed in the interviews were a) technical/thinking ability and b) how will this person fit in now and in 5-10 years. They were good strategies. Also, a person poor in communication abilities never made the cut (they usually never made it past the phone screen).

I remember my first job -- I was an engineer, so I felt I had to show up in a coat and tie. I lasted a few days until I realized that few engineers dressed that way in California (at least in the companies I was familiar with). In fact, nowdays, seeing someone in a coat and tie virtually always marks them as an outsider.

 

[StressGuy]

Man, things seems to have changed quite a bit in the eight years since I interviewed for my first job. The only decision I had to make was whether or not to wear my wedding ring to the interview. Not wearing a suit wasn't even a consideration and I don't remember seeing anyone who wasn't well dressed back then.

FWIW: I did elect to wear my ring. I decided that a company that would consider me less available becuase I already had a marital commitment wasn't the kind of place I would want to get a job at anyway.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

"All the world is a Spring"

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.