In Need of Expertise Regarding Piping System Design 3

[joedevo]

Working on a Rough Order of Magnitude (ROM) estimate for the ITER fusion reactor (

http://www.usiter.org)

being built in France. Specifically, we are trying to price the fabrication of the cooling system. The scale of this project is enormous so it is difficult to obtain the values necessary for an appropriate estimate. If possible, I would like to know about how much cost and/or man-hours per foot of piping for a fully-designed, isometric, scale drawing. A finished product on paper prior to fabrication. Perhaps, someone out there may have a prior chemical plant project which required the same detailed analysis resulting in a scaled isometric drawing. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

 

[pennpiper]

Maybe the following will help some. The projects are much, much smaller than your project but the percentages may be close enough


PIPING ESTIMATING DATA

The following data is a summary of the averages of actual data from 4 representative projects conducted in the late 1990's. The smallest was $9,000,000 and the largest was $60,000,000.


Category Data
Average Total Project Hours = 126,055
Average Total Piping Hours = 33,810
Average Percent Total Piping Hours vs. Total Project Hours = 26.82%

Average Project Line Number Count = 391
Average Project Isometric Count = 1,403

Average Total Piping Design Hours = 26,190
Average Total Piping Material Engineering Hours = 1,854
Average Total Piping Material Control Hours = 800
Average Total Piping Stress Engineering Hours = 1,528
Average Total Lead Piping Engineer, Dep't Prorate & Admin. = 3,438

Average % Piping Design Hours vs. Total Piping Hours = 77.46%
Average % Piping Material Eng. Hrs vs. Total Piping Hours = 5.48%
Average % Piping Material Control. Hrs vs. Total Piping Hours = 2.37%
Average % Piping Stress Eng. Hrs vs. Total Piping Hours = 4.25%
Average % LPE, Dep't/Admin. Hrs vs. Total Piping Hours = 10.17%

Average Total Hours Per Line Number = 86.47
Average Total Hours per Isometric = 24.11

 

[joedevo]

That is a great start, thank you pennpiper for the quick reply! Does anyone else have something similar which provides a specific price and not an average of several projects. The more data I can pull from, the better.

 

[Gator]

You need a P&ID and equipment layout.

Paul

http://www.pipingdesign.com

 

[BigInch]

Chem or petro equipment & manhours will not be anywhere near representative of nuc work. Better ask for nuc project data.

Rough order of magnitude is never given /foot. You'll be doing excellent if you can get a total on the piping ost and manhours alone.

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.msn.com

 

[joedevo]

We are only in the planning stage of development, hence the ROM estimate. As of right now, it is still to be decided whether this equipment needs to be nuclear grade because the design is entirely different than a typical fission reactor. It is not being built to create electricity (steam turbine, etc.), only for experimentation purposes. This is new ground and these decisions will be made in time. For now, I am just looking for design man-hours and cost for a previous high-dollar project so I can get as close as possible to make our own determination.

I am not claiming to be an expert in the pipe system design industry. My goal is to come up with a cost per specific length(feet or meters), so I am asking in case someone has something to offer. I appreciate all of your input, thank you.

 

[GregLamberson]

For what you are lookign for, Page and Page & Nation put out some good order of magnitude cost manuals. They are available thru Gulf Publishing.

Otherwise, benchmarking from previous, similar projects should work.

One of the important issues you will need ot look at is contingency. Regardless of which tools may be applied, experience still plays a major role in the development of screening and conceptual estimates. Such estimates (of both costs and schedules) are by their very nature uncertain and hence, potentially highly inaccurate, although for projects using conventional technology in mature locations, existing data and experience can reduce this uncertainty.

Accuracy of your estimate is very dependent on the scope definition available and is generally best judged by the engineer performing the estimate.

Greg Lamberson, BS, MBA
Consultant - Upstream Energy
Website:

http://www.oil-gas-consulting.com

 

[pennpiper]

Joedevo, you have classified yourself as “Electrical.” If this in fact your actual background (education, training and experience) then it sounds as if someone has assigned you a task that is a bit beyond your current knowledge and capabilities.
I have given you some data showing factors for the home office hours to do piping engineering and design work. Regardless of the type of project, this type of data reflects only part of the piping cost picture. The other part of the home office hour picture is the hourly rate to do this work. This hourly rate depends on where you do the work and the level of expertise (training, experience and supervision) the people have.
Where you have the work done includes the country, the city and the company. If the work is done by one of the top, first class U.S., U.K. or other European engineering companies in one of their home engineering offices you will see fewer hours but at a higher cost. This same company might choose to out-source the work to one of its overseas partners or subsidiaries where the work may need twice the number of hours to achieve the same level of quality. These hours, however, will be at a rate that is far below the U.S. rate. So you need to know where the work will be done and adjust the number of hours and the rates accordingly.
There are still many other factors that will impact the Total Installed Cost (TIC) of the piping for a project.
Other factors include the pipe material, the fabrication, the NDE requirements, the logistics, the final installation, the testing and any pre-start-up preparation.
• Pipe material: This is a multi-part issue. There is the metallurgy itself (carbon steel vs. alloy. There is a big difference between the wide ranges of materials that might be used. With-in the given metal there is then the pipe size which affects the cost and finally there is the pipe schedule (wall thickness) which not only affects the initial cost of the pipe but it also affects the cost of fabrication.
• Fabrication: The fabrication of the piping systems is either done in a remote “shop” or is done at the jobsite. Fabrication at a shop is normally done at a cheaper cost than at the jobsite. The cheaper cost is the result of the ability to use the jigs, fixtures and automatic welding capabilities that are available in the shop. For this reason most projects choose to maximize the shop fabrication of most piping systems. However shop fabrication is only possible up to a point. You will still have to install the piping spools and make the final field welds.
• NDE requirements: NDE stands for Non-Destructive Examination. Depending on the applicable Piping Code requirements different levels of NDE is required for welds in piping systems. NDE is another cost additive to the overall picture.
• Logistics: This relates to the distance and the ramifications involved in the issue of point of fabrication-to-point of installation. Everything from distance to politics to weather can and will affect the logistics issue.
• Final installation: This issue is also complex. It is influenced by the jobsite location and the availability of qualified personnel. The jobsite might be in the arctic or it might be in the middle of the desert. Both of these bring unique problems and will add to the cost of the final project. Final installation also includes any heat tracing, insulation and painting. In some projects it may include dangerous and very costly “Tie-Ins” (Hot-Taps) to active systems.
• Testing: The applicable Piping Code will dictate the testing requirements. The client may also require additional testing over-and-above the Code that will also increase the cost.
• Pre-start-up preparation: This is a category of costly work that may include special cleaning, pickling of the pipe or other internal pipe surface preparation.

I would suggest that someone in your company has data on all or most of these categories. However you will need to determine, ahead of time all or most of the factors. I recommend that you define a very clear and detailed scope of work on which to base your estimate.

 

[joedevo]

Pennpiper,

Once again, thank you for your insight. It is apparent that I am not conveying the correct message. My company is not an engineering design shop (we are a very specialized engineering company), and we are doing a rough order of magnitude estimate/budget for this cooling water system, that we would ultimately farm out to a pipe design firm.

I am not looking for the cost for any of those things you have listed, only to have a drawing made. We already have a cost associated with the fabrication, inspections, and logistics. The installation, testing and pre start-up preparation is not within the scope of this project. I am only looking to find the approximate cost, if given all relevant specifications, just to do the work resulting in a collection of computer generated isometric drawings of the many sections of this system.

As a result of the data you provided, we could understand it better if we knew the following. How many average man-hours do you think it would take to develop a typical isometric drawing? Is approximately 6 linear meters per isometric drawing a good average?

To anyone else who is following this thread. I am still in search of further data from a past project that may reveal the total cost of creating isometric piping drawings, average man hours associated with those costs, as well as a measurement of how much piping was accounted for. (Be sure to read the original post.) Please qualify your answer with a relative discussion as to complexity of your assumed project design/answer. This system is very complex, tightly configured, tight tolerances, is a modularized pipe assembly method (piping and pipe supports mounted on skids for shipping for subsequent field assembly). We have 15,250 linear meters of stainless steel pipe from 450 mm to 25 mm. Thank you all for volunteering your expertise to help others.

 

[pennpiper]

Your question:
"How many average man-hours do you think it would take to develop a typical isometric drawing?"

My answer as listed on the last line of my original post:
Average Total Hours per Isometric = 24.11

 

[GregLamberson]

Again, what you need to do is get a good resource for Order of Magnitude (OOM) pricing (Page is a great one). Hios manuals will give you OOM manhours or installation costs for virtually any type of facility or equipment. From there it is a simple matter, for an OOM, to use basic industry average percentages to break down costs.

If it is not reach out technology, then 10% for engineering, labor at 40% and equipment/materials at 50%.

But you cannot speak of detailed analysis and order of magnitude in the same breath. If you need more details than the above will provide you, then you are beyond a true OOM estimate.

Greg Lamberson, BS, MBA
Consultant - Upstream Energy
Website:

http://www.oil-gas-consulting.com