Industrial Exemption for Engineers... Fact or Fiction?

[JoeTank]

I am fairly new to this forum and have been overly impressed with the depth of passion expressed by many whenever the topic of licensing of engineers surfaces. The threads seem to never end and the topics wander all over the place. Ain't it great!

I noted with interest the phrase "industry exemption" and the fact that it was tossed around like it was a well known fact or law or policy or whatever. Well, it's not well known to me. Although I fully understand the meaning of the phrase, I would like to comment and ask a question on two fronts about the PE/PEng laws and regulations.

ISSUE #1...
COMMENT: I am a licensed PE in a flock of states and read with great interest all of the PE Board newsletters. I am especially drawn to reports on cases in which the Board takes legal action against unlicensed individuals. In all cases I am fairly confident that I have never seen any actions against an individual that had the term "engineer" on a business card, unless that person was offering (or appearing to offer) engineering services to the public. I do not recall ever reading the phrase "industrial exemption" or similar on the laws regulating the practice of engineering in any of the states in which I am licensed. I'm no lawyer, but I do recall what our house counsel told me many years ago about this issue. I worked for a steel plate fabrication firm at the time. She said that industrial firms do not practice engineering. Engineering is an adjunct to the manufacturing process. Sounded good at the time.
QUESTION: Are there any states in the Union that actually use the phrase "industrial exemption"? I don't think so, but would like to hear from the gang on this one.

ISSUE #2...
COMMENT: I have never investigated becoming licensed in Canada, so I am totally ignorant about the laws governing a PEng. Based on all of the threads about the licensing issue, I think I have picked up on the fact that one cannot even use the title of "engineer" on a business card unless you are a PEng. However, there is a specific legal exemption for engineers that are working in industry. In other words, the "industrial exemption" is actually written into the law. I believe that this was cited as a law in Ontario by one of the forum members.
QUESTION #2: Is there an "industrial exemption" written into the Federal or Provincial laws of Canada?

LAST COMMENT... I seems like the PE/PEng laws may be very similar. In the US, only engineers offering services to the public are regulated. There is no need for a specific mention of an industrial exemption as these positions are not regulated by the law. Further, I am understanding from the comments on this forum that in Canada all engineers are regulated, but that the guys in industry receive and exemption. Sounds like it ends up at the same point.

Wow, this ended up a whole lot longer than intended. I'm really just trying to obtain an understanding of the differences, if any, between the PE and PEng laws.

Thanks.


Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[IRstuff]

I think that the modus operandi is "no harm no foul."

Unless the engineer in question has, as you indicated, offered public services or actually been involved in some harm to the public, most people are too ignorant of the law to worry about such things.

TTFN

 

[jetmaker]

In Ontario, people do get reprimanded for the use of the word "engineer" when they are not so license. It is most often in a letter to simple stop using the term, with the appropriate section of the code attached. Actions are then taken if the offender does not cease to use the word.

 

[PBroad]

There are many people who omit to put money in parking meters, but it is illegal too. The law of averages says you may not be caught the first time but don't expect your luck to continue.

 

[stevenal]

I seem to recall the Oregon Board going after a "domestic egineering" company (a maid service). I believe they backed down when it was pointed out that no one believed they were actually offering engineering services.

While we're at it, can the guy who drives a fire engine or locomotive have "engineer" on his card? Was Scotty a PE?

 

[JoeTank]

stevenal,
There are other 'engineers" out there. Some state PE laws specifically recognize the longstanding practice of referring to some type of equipemnt operators as engineers. In light of Scotty's lineage, he may have been a Chartered Engineer.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[JoeTank]

Wasn't NAFTA supposed to have some provisions for PE and PEngs to do cross-border work. I have crossed into Canada a number of times, flashed my PE license, showed my client's letter of invitation and explained that I was there for a day or two to help a client thru some difficulties. Of course, I was asked to pay fee for that priviledge (about $120 Canadian). I just assumed that this process was part of the NAFTA agreements

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants

http://www.tankindustry.com

 

[bvi]

Yes, the cross border NAPTHA agreement works for professionals, including engineers. I recalled it being $100 US. That gives you a work permit to work for one company in one location (maybe two if you stretch it) for a year. As an engineer, you don't need a PE, just a degree.

 

[tulum]

Hi all,

Just a couple more comments from Ontario,

1. A company may only have a C of A if an engineer is on staff and takes credit for the work of that company.

2. There is also something called a "limited License" where people who have not earned a engineering degree, but have accumulated the needed experience to become a specialist in an area, may practice... of course there are terms and limitations to this... (see

http://www.peo.on.ca)

Interesting topic.. later.

 

[rbcoulter]

The "industrial exemption" is alive & well and getting
stronger in the U.S., contrary to popular opinion.
It basically means that when companies need engineering work done (for themselves) they do not need to hire licensed engineers to do it. The only exception to this
(in most cases) is civil/structural engineering explaining why the originator of this thread was unfamiliar with it.

California had tried to regulate mechanical & electrical
engineering as strictly as civil engineering. Unfortunately, that old law was poorly worded and tried to do some absurd things like only mechanical engineers could
do fluid mechanics. The law was changed basically removing any protections for licensed electrical & licensed mechanical engineers. The new California law now only protects the practice of civil engineering.

 

[jheidt2543]

rbcoulter raises an interesting point when he says: "The new California law now only protects the practice of civil engineering." Are the registration laws covering PE's for the protection of the engineering profession or the protection of the public?

 

[rbcoulter]

Engineering laws SHOULD only regulate engineering that affects public safety. To pick on California again, their law implies that only civil engineering needs to be regulated. Certainly, other disciplines of engineering can have a significant impact (negative or positive) on public safety.

 

[IRstuff]

I'm confused by what you are saying. The California PE board website seems to imply something quite different:

http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/2004_pe_act.pdf,

particularly:

"6704. Defines who may use engineer titles
In order to safeguard life, health, property, and public welfare, no person shall practice civil, electrical, or mechanical engineering unless appropriately registered or specifically exempted from registration under this chapter, and only persons registered under this chapter shall be entitled to take and use the titles “consulting engineer,” “professional engineer,” or “registered engineer,” ..."

TTFN

 

[rbcoulter]

Read further down about exemptions:


6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil
engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining,
public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that
corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or
services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary
employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

 

[rbcoulter]

In regards to my previous post, let's take for example contractor A & contractor B seeking contract engineering jobs in California. Let's assume contractor A is a degreed EE with a PE license in California, and that contractor B has a two year degree in electronics and no PE license.
A company meeting the above exemption has no obligation to hire contractor A and can legally hire contractor B for any engineering work for that company even if that work is temporary. The same analogy goes for mechanical.

 

[rww88]

Go to PDHcenter.com and review specific sections of course numbers R109 and R110 relating to industrial exemptions to gain a snapshot knowledge of this subject. Course content at this website can be viewed without cost.

 

[nontaxpayer]

If you want to know whether you must be licensed as an engineer, you must read the laws of the state very carefully. They are available online from the various state licensing boards. In New Hampshire, for example, the "practice of engineering" applies only ".....wherein the public welfare, or the safeguarding of life, health or property is concerned." So, by definition, you aren't practicing engineering unless the public welfare, or the safeguarding of life, health or property is concerned.

California's laws are somewhat confusing, but if you read their definitions, by "civil engineer" they mean " a professional engineer engaged in the field of civil engineering"... So when the law says that you need a license to practice civil engineering, it seems to say that you need a license to be a professional (licensed) engineer, and that is not a real issue, anyhow. They do prohibit you from calling yourself a "consulting", "professional", or "registered" engineer without a license.

I am not an attorney (thank God) so read the laws for yourself, but remember that the state governments are all corporations and they all trick their citizens into relinquishing various common law rights in exchange for "privileges" that they grant to raise tax money.

By the way, the federal government is no different, and the Internal Revenue Code applies only to taxpayers, and NOT to nontaxpayers. Very few people meet the legal definition of "taxpayer".

 

[electricpete]

The industrial exemption related to engineering within an organization not offered to general public has two aspects:

1 - As discussed in detail, engineers who do this work need not have a PE.

2 - For engineers doing this work who do have their PE, in Texas at least, they don't need to pay nearly as much for annual renewal. I think I pay something like $30 and non-exempt PE's have to pay $230.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.