instructed to break copyright law 7

[joebk]

I have been instructed to send a copy of an industry standard to a vendor. The problem is that there is an obvious statement on the document that it is protected by international copyright law and is not to be distributed, copied, etc.

I really don't want to do this and I have been dragging my feet to avoid it but this will eventually come to an impasse. I am sure if I don't do as I am told there will be some upset folks further up on the food chain. I don't think this would pose a major legal problem but it obviously breaks copyright law(s) so I really don't want to do this.

If anyone has successfully avoided this without endangering or losing their job I would appreciate any advise.

 

[dgowans]

You're the customer, correct? I'm assuming that your vendor needs the standard so that you can communicate your requirements to said vendor using the same "language". If this is the case, the vendor should buy their own copy of the standard as a cost of doing business.

IMO, the cost of buying a copy of an industry standard is a pittance compared to the costs that would be incurred should the prohibited copying become a legal issue, however unlikely that may be. I'd compare this with illegal copies of software. A company where I used to work got mixed up in a BSA audit and spent thousands of dollars in legal fees.

I'd present these arguments along with any others that you come up with. Unfortunately it often takes an economic argument to get management's attention.

 

[Ashereng]

Can you reference the standard of interest, and quote the source? That should be allowed under a copyright protections.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[BJC]

Have you got the instructions in writing or do you have a reliable witness? have you recorded the request in some way? An example would be a letter to your lawyer saying "here is what I have been asked to do.... can I go to jail for this or be sued?"". IF the company has an attorney can you ask him/her?
Once you have it documented just say "Hell NO". If you have trouble on the horizon, don't wait for it. If you get fired and have the above documentation you have recours.
They hung a lot of people at Nuremberg that were just "following orders".
Another option if you don't want to say "Hell No" and have a company credit card, or can requisition things is just to buy a copy. You can arrange most standards to be downloaded.

 

[unclesyd]

My company got in a bit of trouble doing essentially the same thing. We at times would send a copy of parts of the code where clarification might be needed. For years this was no problem until one of the vendors got in a conflict with one of his other customers. Our copy was used used by one party to prove a point in litigation. It ended up the copy had our company stamp and no credit was given for the source. A smart lawyer picked up on the copyrighted material and went to town on us.
It cost us a little money and I think we had to certify that no other unauthorized copies of any code materials existed.

Our IT dept also got us in trouble with unauthorized copies of software. I liked their explanation, everybody does it we just got caught.

 

[MintJulep]

Just send them the original.

If questioned, you can simply reply: "You told me to send them the standard. It was copyrighted. Since I was sure that you didn't want to violate the copyright, I sent the original."

 

[JStephen]

Did you point out it was copyrighted and therefore you couldn't legally copy it? Sometimes, that's all it takes to get honest people to thinking.

 

[sms]

MintJulep

That was brilliantly obvious. A star for you.

I would take it one step further, since you may need the original, or you may have notes in your copy, I would order a new copy and have it delivered to the vendor.




"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[KENAT]

joebk,

I'd try and get a new copy for the vendor as others said. If you need some king of approval to spend the money get the person who told you to send it to sign the approval.

When they ask why do you want to spend this money you can explain the copy right issue.

Another option if it's an ASME spec, send a link to the specific page on the ASME website where they can get a copy.

You need to be more careful suggesting they go to a third party though.

At the end of the day you probably will end up needing to broach the copyright issue with the person that told you to send it. The important thing is handling this well.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[kenvlach]

Seems you've overlooked the obvious.
What kind of QA/QC allows buying from unqualified vendors?
Lacking an industry standard seems evidence enough that they're lacking production compliance records to that standard. Do a survy/audit.

 

[IRstuff]

ISO certification does not require adherence to any published standard.

And there are TONS of "standards," many of the duplicative, yet not obviously different enough to demand their own publication number. DO-160 is a good example of where someone created a whole new "standard," yet massive sections are duplicates of military standards. So, you might have a MIL-STD-461 qualified design and still have to buy DO-160, only to find that you're buying duplicate information.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[joebk]

Still dragging my feet on this but won't be able to for much longer.

It is a no-win situation. Drawings reference a standard for conformance and testing of the material. The specification is clear enough that anyone should be able to get the standard. Vendors quoted the part and the pricing looked good. Now that we have chosen a vendor based on quotation, they want us to supply them with the standard.

The standard is readily available and is not expensive. I told the purchasing department they could buy a copy and give it to their vendor but this didn't sit well with the folks up the food chain. They don't want to spend the $$, they just want me to shut up and send a copy of the standard.

I could send the original but I must admit that this would be a quick way to be shown the door.

I think that it has become somewhat common in industry to break these copyright laws so it isn't seen as a problem. My only hope is that the vendor takes the hint and purchases a copy of the standard. Who knows what will happen...

 

[IRstuff]

If your company doesn't want to spend the money, they should simply insist that the supplier get the spec that they claimed compliance for.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[IRstuff]

Otherwise, it's basically a breach of contract.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[KENAT]

IRstuff is right, of course managment at joebk place may not see it this way.

Somewhat weasily but, could you lend the spec to purchasing to deal with the problem?

It's passing the buch which I'm generally against but you do seem to in a no win sit.

Are you job hunting yet?

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[MedicineEng]

A question:
How the supplier was able to quote something that refered a standard that they didn't have a copy? How do they know that they are not binding themselves in a loose money contract?
It makes me wonder the ability of the supplier to comply with your requirements down the road.

 

[sms]

One more solution that maintains your job and integrity, go buy a copy yourself and send it to them.

I don't know how expensive it is, some standards are thousands of dollars, some are a couple hundred... If you can afford it, problem solved..

Based on the behavior you describe, you should also start wondering if this is an organization you really want to work for.




"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?" Oddball, "Kelly's Heros" 1970

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.

 

[MintJulep]

Well then you are just going to have to come out and say

"Hey, the standard is copyrighted. It's illegal to make a copy to give to a vendor, and I won't do it."

By the way, did your company actually obtain the copy you have legally?

 

[boffintech]

MintJulep is right. I said essentially the same thing to one of my bosses and I never heard anyone ever ask me to copy copyrighted material again. I just said, "Hey this material is copyrighted. Violating this copyright would be like stealing."

I think the difference is that as an engineer you understand that original ideas born of long years of higher education and superior intellect are a valuable commodity. Let's face it, it's a virtual cosmic certainty that no one in purchasing is ever going to have an original idea worth stealing so they can't relate to this issue AT ALL!

 

[ARenko]

When someone asks me to send them a copy I just send them an email with a link and say "you can order it here." Nobody has ever come back and asked a second time.