Insurance Company rejects CBO and Structural Engineering Findings 3

[BVWayne]

I am a Florida CBO who recently had a housefire that heated the interior of the building to over 900 degrees for approx. 45 minutes. The fire did not penetrate the drywall membrane of the trusses, but did dry-out the core of the drywall (calvinization). There was bat insulation which held residual heat for hours beyond the period of time the fire department extinguished the fire. The trusses have shown signs of charring and discoloration of the gusset plates of the trusses. As a professional, I hired a structural engineer to access the damage and he concluded that the fire compromised the trusses and since more than 30% of the trusses require replacement, this is now a Level - 3 Alteration according Florida Building Code Existing. Insurance company states that the trusses just don't look that bad and they have repaired worse. I have attached a Fire Model for those of you interested in heat damage to trusses. Your comments are welcome and appreciated. Particular comments to why trusses don't have to look so charred to be compromised would be especially helpful.

I believe this is an issue because I have Code Insurance on my policy and if they agree to the truss replacement, they will then have to bring the entire structure up to current code.



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

You have a way with words, Ronnie..."a junkyard dog who chews concrete." BTW, I haven't met a construction lawyer that doesn't... seems to be part of the work!

 

[BVWayne]

Love that quote. Yes, it lookks like they have hired a forensic engineering firm out of Florida. So, lets see how legitimate a firm it is. Thanks for the advice on lawyer. Good point. I'll google "junkyard dog" and hopefully a few good lawyers come up. I can't believe it has gone this far.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

Ron, I have offices in Ft. Myers, travel to Broward County and am there for two days a week. Additionally, my home is located in Highlands County, which crosses Florida on US 27. I just signed a contract to do work in Kissimmee area for the next 3 years... On my way to St. Augustine for a conference this weekend, so you can say I'm everywhere in Florida these days. Just re-read your post that you are in forensic engineering... I'm just waiting to see what the forensics engineering firm hangs there hat on to get the insurance company what they want. You guys will be one of the first to see anything I get from them.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
Yeah, I'm looking forward to his report as well. I'm in Duval County and most of our work is in Duval/St. Johns. We have an office in Orlando as well, doing work in Central and South Florida. As with you, we pretty much cover the state. I have two projects in Kissimmee.

This one is interesting...let's see how it pans out.

Enjoy your conference.

Ron

 

[dik]

I was talking to one of my classmates who has his own consulting practice and he's into wood construction. He used to be the engineering manager for one of the truss manufacturers in Winnipeg. He's also active with the TPIC group.

He was wondering how the trusses sustained 900F temperatures for 45 minutes? Are there good records of the time and temperature?

His normal practice for fire damaged roof trusses is that if there is any significant charring, the truss is suspect and should be removed.

If the plates have moved, then he used an example that if the gap is less than a credit card, the strength of the connection is likely there, but the strength rapidly falls off for larger gaps.

He also noted the reduction in strength as well as a loss of ductility. As a bit of a surprise, apparently trusses that are treated with a fire retardant material lose strength faster.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Dik, thanks for discussing this with your friend. The fire temperature information came from the firemen onsite. They measure the temperature on their protective gear and also had a thermal gun. The time is estimated from the time I was away which was about 1.5 hours. The drywall in the house was calvinized and we lost entire contents, every one of the 4 rooms, including closed closets were a total loss due to extensive smoke damage. This all comes from the fire report and we have a letter from the adjuster stating the total content loss inside. However, I will forward your message to our engineer and have him review it for the gaps as stated in your message. I'm alway open to learning more about this, whether it helps my case or not. I'm a mechanical engineer and Florida Code is my life. I'm going to Washington DC next week to help write tests for the USGBC and am focused on Green Building education. This fire has definitely put the pressure on me, and it doesn't help that I'm going to have to fight on this issue of truss damage just to save a company a few bucks. I'd like to upload some pics of the fire damage so you guys get a sense of what we're all looking at. Not sure if photos are allowed on here.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[rowingengineer]

Your photo's are welcome as long as they are in good taste .


Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[dik]

rowingengineer... anytime I see charcoal... reminds me to bring the steak and sausages...

I think all firetrucks should have a box of hotdogs and marshmallows on the front seat...

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
I did a truss evaluation in Orlando some years back and the truss plate institute has a similar requirement to what dik pointed out. When the gap exceeds about an eighth of an inch, the capacity goes way down! That can come from wetting/drying, fire or mishandling. In any case, the result is strength reduction.

Ron

 

[BVWayne]

I had a call from an Engineer that told me another problem you can run across is when the truss plates get heated for a long period of time and then slowly cooled down, that the plates become annealled. (softened) The gaps are a good point and there is some gapping in the most affected areas. As for the credit card size, I'm going to have to look into that. Question, if this situation was happening to one of you, would you want to be present to watch what the forensic engineer is doing or looking at? Or do you think you would have already hired a Public Adjuster to take care of the fight? I'm curious, because my wife wants to meet the forensics guy because she feels that maybe it will make a difference if he looks the person in the face, especially if they are an insurance henchmen. I have to comment about the hotdogs... there were enough firemen at this fire and there was definite charring. Next time, I'll just pull out the bbq...

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
Always have someone watch the other side when they do their observations. That way you can decide how thoroughly they checked things, you can see their methodology, you can see if he measures or even looks at the gap, you can see if he tries to determine the depth of charring, you can see if he does any moisture content testing, you can see if he tries to correlate the physical evidence with other observations (i.e., melted plastics, discoloration of metals, spalling concrete, etc.....all of these are indications of thermal conditions, so he needs to check them).

Don't lead the guy to anything. Don't talk to him, don't give opinions...just watch and be quiet. If he's good, he'll show it. If he's a shyster, he'll hang himself.

Ron

 

[BVWayne]

You know, I asked the question, because I do want to be there. My concern is that it will be extremely difficult not to say anything. These guys make their money on insurance claims for the insurers, so I'm not holdling out hope of an unbiased report. My wife said that she would watch him, but she doesn't know what to look for. I was advised by a public adjuster that I shouldn't have my Engineer present. He said he would be present, but I would have to retain him, and I don't want to retain his services until I'm absolutely sure which direction the insurance commpany is going. With my schedule, it'll be close to impossible for me to personally be there. Wish I could hire someone like you watch him, but where I am, there are not many people up to your level. I wonder if I had my wife use her camera phone to video, so I can review it for myself. The idea feels so unethical, and I wouldn't want someone to video me when I'm doing work. It's a dilemma, but I agree, I want to see what he does. He said that he would take about 3 - 4 hours and would go truss to truss. Would love to have a video to share with you guys... would I be breaking a law? I'm sticking to the professional reports and hope that the Building Official sticks to his original determination. The gapping issue has me very interested. The housefire occured on June 10th and the house was saturated with water from the firetruck and left closed all this time. A lot of humidity. The industrial hygeinest took samples, and now we have mold through-out. It will probably be a few weeks before I can show you guys the insurance company's report.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[hokie66]

The mold should be enough to condemn the house. Based on some other cases in Florida, particularly with courthouses, the health problems associated with widespread fungus should get the insurance company's attention.

 

[rowingengineer]

Don't need someone with an engineering knowledge to watch, just someone with a good memory that can take good notes with a few pictures when he dose something interesting, like measures or tests. Older people do this when I do water damage or foundation movement reports. I always request a copy, but other than that I don’t get too worried about it, so this guy shouldn’t.

Be nice and delete the ones that make the guy look fat.

Dik,
I’m with you on this, mashmellows by an open fire, beer in hand and a steak on the BBQ, dam fine dinning in my opinion.


Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that them like it

 

[BVWayne]

I plan on having either myself or another representative there.

I'm in St. Augustine today and just want to forget this house problem. And, now this thread has me craving some good BBQ.

You guys are too funny.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

We used to have a prof that used to hop onto the table at the front of the class to sit on it... this was fine until an engineer I know quite well... put a marble under each of the four legs...

Now, that's funny.

 

[dik]

Effective and partially effective teeth from TPIC... The US equivalent the TPI should have something similar, I would think...

Dik

 

[Ron]

dik...let me guess...that engineer is coincidentally exactly your same age and was born in the same hospital!!

That is funny.

Wayne...as for video and photos, it's your house you do what you want and don't worry about them. A little close scrutiny might keep the engineer from being stupid.

Now go get some good BarBQ at Bono's, Sonny's, or Woody's in St. Augustine. All are good, each a little different than the others. Not impressed with Bono's ribs, but other stuff is good.

 

[BVWayne]

Dik, thanks for the attachment. I'm going to keep reading everything I can. Any of you guys going to be at the BOAF meeting tomorrow? Wife wants to go have French food tonight... I'll have to break it to her gently that it's bbq at Woodys...

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne...U da man! Why have foo foo French when you can have BBQ!!

No, wish I could make it to the BOAF meeting. I work closely with the NE Florida Chapter, particularly on stucco issues. Dan Arlington, in St. Johns County, has done a good job of getting more recognition for that issue and the lack of awareness of the subcontractors/contractors.

Ron