Insurance Company rejects CBO and Structural Engineering Findings 3

[BVWayne]

I am a Florida CBO who recently had a housefire that heated the interior of the building to over 900 degrees for approx. 45 minutes. The fire did not penetrate the drywall membrane of the trusses, but did dry-out the core of the drywall (calvinization). There was bat insulation which held residual heat for hours beyond the period of time the fire department extinguished the fire. The trusses have shown signs of charring and discoloration of the gusset plates of the trusses. As a professional, I hired a structural engineer to access the damage and he concluded that the fire compromised the trusses and since more than 30% of the trusses require replacement, this is now a Level - 3 Alteration according Florida Building Code Existing. Insurance company states that the trusses just don't look that bad and they have repaired worse. I have attached a Fire Model for those of you interested in heat damage to trusses. Your comments are welcome and appreciated. Particular comments to why trusses don't have to look so charred to be compromised would be especially helpful.

I believe this is an issue because I have Code Insurance on my policy and if they agree to the truss replacement, they will then have to bring the entire structure up to current code.



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[msquared48]

I looked at the publication very quickly...

Hate to be the devil's advocate here, but Figures 2 and 3 have this statement:

"Temperature reflects the internal temperature of the lumber at the time the load was increased until failure."

To me, this seems to address the loss in strength when the lumber is heated, not after the fire when it has cooled, which is the apparent bone of contention.

Am I missing something here?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[Ron]

Point One - The National Forest Product Laboratory is certainly authoritative on this subject.

Point Two - Bob White has probably done more research on fire damage to wood than anyone in the country.

Point Three - Truss plates pull away from the truss during a "heat event" and that alone reduces the capacity of a truss significantly.

Check the other publications of the Forest Products Lab on fire effects...you'll validate your rejection of the existing trusses.

 

[dik]

In addition to the above...

The wood may have been damaged by pyrolysis which reduces it's strength and impact resistance as well as increasing the likelihood of it starting on fire a second time.

Keep us posted and if I get a chance to dig 'em up, I have several publications on structure fires... They're packed in cardboard boxes in the basement... I've done many reports on fires.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Thank you for the replies. I did forget to mention that the structural engineeer did some non-destructive and destructive testing with the use of moisture meters and picks. They also observed sapping and wood-splitting. Any articles you wish to share, will definitely be read and filed. I guess I'm just surprised that as Professionals, we pay for a certain type of insurance and the insurance company doesn't really care that we know what we are talking about. What is even more interesting, is that they disregarded the County Building Official's letter and recommendation. I'm very knowledgeable about Florida Building Code, yet they are not shy to try and disregard the truss damage, so that they can minimize the claim. Meanwhile, if you're in Florida, you know that you're only one good hurricane away from a convertible house. Thanks guys, I'm new to this website and hope I can help anyone out in the future.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[msquared48]

You might takde look at this thread too:

Home > Forums > Engineering Codes, Standards & Certifications > Engineering Codes, Standards & Certifications > NDS/AITC (Wood Construction) Code Issues Forum
How does heat/fire affect wood strength?
thread173-220260

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[msquared48]

In an old copy of the NDS, 1982, in Appendix C, it made mention that up to 150 degrees Farenheit, the wood regains it's strength and elasticity after it cools. Above that temperature, any loss in strength or elasticity is permanent.

I couldn't find my current copy...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[BVWayne]

I downloaded the article in the thread. Thanks. My fire was over 900 degrees according to the fire department and you can see visible charring. I'm going to print all the articles and am working with a structural engineer to validate our claim. If anyone has experienced something like this, I would love to read their story. Any Building Officials out there that have had an Insurance Company disregard your determination?

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne....I've attached one article from the National Forest Products Lab that might be helpful to you and your engineer. It is a public domain article. I have two other articles, but they're too large to attach. Go to the Forest Products Lab website and do a search on "Fire Performance" and "Post-fire Evaluation"...you'll be able to download the articles. Also, check Chapter 4 of the "Wood Handbook". It has some good info on fire damage.

One other thing to note is this is potentially a "public safety" issue. Your engineer needs to note that under Florida law, he has an obligation to report the insurance adjuster's decision to the engineer's supervisor (if he has one), the adjuster's supervisor, and since you are the CBO and you're already aware of it, he needs to take it to the insuror's governing body...the state insurance commissioner.


Under Florida Administrative Code, Rule 61G15, paragraph 19.001(6)(l), the engineer can be fined for misconduct if he does not report it.

(l) if his engineering judgment is overruled by an unqualified lay authority with the results that the public health and safety is threatened, failure by a professional engineer to inform his employer, responsible supervision and the responsible public authority of the possible circumstances;

You might also want to get an opinion of a another engineer as well...

 

[BVWayne]

Ron, that is very helpful. I don't like to escalate things unless I'm pushed into a corner, but it seems that the insurance company is looking to minimize the claim. I have printed the articles and will highlight it and provide a copy not only to my Engineer, but also a copy for the insurance company. I'm going to hire another Engineer as well.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

If he is the CBO and owner, he should maybe excuse himself and have another CBO (area close) since he may have a conflict of interest.

 

[BVWayne]

Good point. I am a CBO, however, I am not representing myself in this case. I should have clarified. My county has a Building Official who I provided all the reports to for his evaluation and recommendation. It was after I received his recommendation that I submitted it along with all the reports to the insurance company. I felt it would be a huge conflict of interest if I tried to represent myself, I felt that for the purpose of discussing this with professionals on this site, that you knew I was knowledgeable about Florida Building Code and a credentialed professional. The insurance company is disregarding that Building Officials recommendation and not accepting the Structural Engineers determination, or the Truss Company's evaluation. Thanks for the reply.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[hokie66]

Some insurance companies stonewall. This may be the time for a letter from your lawyer.

 

[BVWayne]

Yes, I agree on the stonewall comment. We're compiling all the articles, engineering reports and will set-up a meeting. In the meantime, they are hiring an Engineer to do a report for them. We're wondering what Engineer in his right mind would be willing to state that 900 degrees for over 45 minutes hasn't damaged the trusses, but you know how deep Insurance company pockets are. We have an attorney ready to go, but I still believe in giving someone a chance to do the right thing. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for the advice.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
Please let us know what the engineer for the insurance company says and also what your third-party engineer says. You have an issue that might need to go to the state board level. It already needs to go to the insurance commissioner. Insurance adjusters should not be practicing engineering and to let them get away with it is not right.

Being an engineer in Florida, specializing in construction forensics, I have a significant interest in the outcome of this situation.

Thanks,
Ron

 

[BVWayne]

Ron, I wasn't thinking of reporting to the insurance commissioner until you mentioned it here. I have advised my first Engineer about your reply and he agreed. I will, of course, keep those interested aware of how this progresses. I am determined to take the all the way to court if necessary. As soon as I know whether or not the insurance company is going to act in good faith, I will post all the reports for you to see including the building official's letter. I can't wait to see which Engineer they hire, and if he's an insurance guy or a professional.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

You might want to get copies of all the reports the fire department has prepared including the assessment of the temperatures, and the duration as well as any information they have about damage from similar fires.

Best to get any and all info before things start to get nasty and people start to tighten up on disclosing info. Your engineer should be able to do that for 'background' for his engineering report.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Good advice. I have the original fire report from the fire department. It clearly states that the temperature was approximately 900 degrees. I provided that report to every professional reporting. I even included it in the packet to the Building Official, who made his determination. You're right about information. I expect that things will get nasty. I just want to make sure that we have all the reports and if they choose to act in bad faith, then it leaves us no other option than to report them to the commissioner and let the lawyers figure it out. The report from Mr. White is pretty clear. I even spoke to him personally and was impressed on his knowledge. Unfortunately, I also did some research on the insurance company and apparently, this is their M.O. when handling issues with roofs.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
Make sure that if it gets to the litigation level, that your attorney is a construction lawyer. I've seen clients waste money on a good real estate or contracts attorney, only to find that they needed a junkyard dog who chews concrete.

What part of Florida are you in?

Ron

 

[dik]

and if it progresses that far, the damage likely extends to the foundations... not just the shingles <G>.