Insurance Company rejects CBO and Structural Engineering Findings 3

[BVWayne]

I am a Florida CBO who recently had a housefire that heated the interior of the building to over 900 degrees for approx. 45 minutes. The fire did not penetrate the drywall membrane of the trusses, but did dry-out the core of the drywall (calvinization). There was bat insulation which held residual heat for hours beyond the period of time the fire department extinguished the fire. The trusses have shown signs of charring and discoloration of the gusset plates of the trusses. As a professional, I hired a structural engineer to access the damage and he concluded that the fire compromised the trusses and since more than 30% of the trusses require replacement, this is now a Level - 3 Alteration according Florida Building Code Existing. Insurance company states that the trusses just don't look that bad and they have repaired worse. I have attached a Fire Model for those of you interested in heat damage to trusses. Your comments are welcome and appreciated. Particular comments to why trusses don't have to look so charred to be compromised would be especially helpful.

I believe this is an issue because I have Code Insurance on my policy and if they agree to the truss replacement, they will then have to bring the entire structure up to current code.



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

The adjuster actually said I could speak with the guy, if I had any questions. As for initials, I would say that you weren't far off... but, in reality, they are all the same. I'm still waiting to receive a copy of the report. More to come.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne,
I'd like to speak with the guy after reading the report!!

Ron

 

[dik]

A CV generally scopes out the dude's credentials and experience. Having a copy of this is a bit of a 'heads up' on what you are dealing with... When you are talking to the guy, you might request this...

I've had different experience with different insurance companies. Some clients have been quite unreasonable and in my humble opinion... wrong.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

As soon as I get it, I will share it. As for the guy, I was surprised I was told I could speak with him. I actually liked him and found him quite friendly. So, lets see what his reasoning is.

Dik, while my wife is unreasonable and sometimes, wrong... I sincerely doubt I'm wrong on these issues.

They clearly want to minimize their liability.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

It's more than that... every dollar they pay out... is directly out of their profit!

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Dik, it sounds like you're worried about the insurance company's bottom line. Is your insurance company not charging you enough for your coverage. I have been a decades long customer with not one claim, not even when a hurricane came. I had own shingles replaced out of pocket. But, I'm concerned about making myself whole, or as close to whole as possible on this claim, and you can't tell me that it's ok for the insurance company to come up with excuses, or opinions that are not based on fact or actual testing. Anyone can render an opinion. The fact that they are questioning the level status on this claim is directly attributed to the fact that they do not want to repair the damage to meet code. Insurance companies always watch the bottom line, that's just good business sense, but I believe I am making a resonable claim, backed by professional reports and tests and they are simply being ignored.

Btw, I have requested the engineer's CV (resume) and more detail will follow...



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[dik]

I'm not worried about the insurance company's bottom line... but, you can bet your last dollar that they are!

I've always advised clients and their customers that no matter who pays for the report, the report would essentially be the same; I don't take sides.

One of the problems with insurance is that their needs are generally different than your needs... you want proper protection... this is contrary to their wanting to maximise profits...

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

That's it exactly. And, I am so busy right now with work on both Coasts that I figure, I'm going to be patient and keep an open mind. Maybe someone without a dog in this fight can look at it and point out any flaws on either report. I'm just good at what I know, which is Mechanical Engineering and Florida Building Code. I just added a HUD certification, and am exploring all avenues (as we all are). My frustration is simply that I can understand they are a business, but you don't tell the cardio-vascular surgeon how to do a mitral valve repair, and they shouldn't be trying to avoid code compliance with a Building Official. I'm confident that we will get somewhere. I am a firm believer that compromise most of the time gets you more than no compromise. I have a few people looking at this, and frankly, I think this will serve as a barometer for other's that are not in our industry and it may even interest me in working in the forensics side helping those that have no idea how to get insurance companies to own up to their policies.

You guys have been great. I look forward to providing you all the details, along with photos so that this at the very least might be a learning experience, or simply a reason not to work with a particular insurance company.

My thoughts as of late is how all those Katrina victims must have felt trying to defend themselves from these insurance companies.

Dik, I take your advice to heart and I'm looking forward to getting this guys resume (CV). Hang in there, more is to come.

Thanks to everyone!

Especially Ron and Dik, for the kindness of your interest.

Have a great day. I'm back on the road...

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

Bad day, left computer at office and using wife's computer. Glad to see this site is easily accessible via web. Was wondering if maybe more testing of the trusses at this juncture would help? Any thoughts? The Forensic guy didn't take any core samples, or do even moisture meter readings, so I thought why not pay to have it tested myself.

Wanted to get some opinions on whether or not to do what he didn't do.

I really think that pink computers are just plain wrong!

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[Ron]

Wayne...moisture content testing at this point would be irrelevant. Sampling the charred areas for depth of charring will yield some quantitative information on remaining capacity.

The truss plates need to be checked carefully, as this is where you can get a significant capacity reduction, even when the truss materials seem to be relatively unaffected.


Ron

 

[dik]

YOu should have some wood 'plugs' taken in the areas of worst char along with a plan showing the locations at very least. There are two keys to failure one being the reduction in area and strength and the other being the ineffectiveness of the truss plates. Has the report by your consultant offered additional information than this forum? It would be handy to know so we don't miss this in future (maybe we've done it, but missed it in the discussion). First and foremost, you have to show that the trusses have been damaged and then you have to show that a significant portion (beyound your code allowance) have been damaged, necessitating replacement.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

The forensic engineer mapped out the trusses, did no other type of inspection other than visual, and his report denied all claims except removal of drywall thoughout the house. He made it a Level 1, which is so off-base,and I can clearly prove that to be wrong, but what I don't have is that sampling you discussed. I have moisture meetings about 2 weeks after the fire however. So, now I'm waiting on some opinions from other Engineers as to the lack of teeth on his report and am contemplating sending this to an attorney, for bad faith, as they are disregarding other opinions from experts in the field and even the County Building Official.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[scottiesei]

How many trusses is he calling to be removed or repaired out of how many total? Can you provide pictures of trusses that you believe are damaged which he is specifying to remain? I'm not sure how "bad faith" would apply. His report is his professional opinion just like the other professionals you mention each have their own opinion. His report is not, and would not be the basis of any law suit, but would be entered as evidence from the defense if you attempted to sue the insurance company. What type of code upgrades do you feel apply to the restoration? How old is the home? Type of construction?

 

[dik]

Who's forensic engineer... your's or the insurance company's? What was his criteria for having them removed? Moisture contents two weeks after the fire can easily be dismissed... what was the weather in the interim? what was the effect of the water used for knocking the fire down, is the wood hygroscopic?, char hygroscopic?, etc. What info/opinion did your 'expert' offer? What info can he immediately refute? refute with citations?, etc.

Dik

 

[BVWayne]

Sick today and frankly, your questions are all very relevant. I feel like I should give you guys the report and let you tear it apart. I'll post pics of the fire this afternoon, as I have a few calls to return this morning, even though, I have taken a sick day. Thanks guys.



Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[BVWayne]

First time uploading a photo to this site. Not sure if I can do more than one at a time. Here is the first one.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[scottiesei]

Do you have any pictures of the trusses themselves?

 

[BVWayne]

Yes, I have photos in a pdf that is huge. So, I'll have to scan them individually. Thank you for your interest. I am looking forward to all the comments.

Wayne

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP

 

[cntw1953]

PDF995 - A nice small program for whoever wants to create PDF file by just a few clicks. Best of all, it is free from

http://www.pdf995.com.

- Install the downloaded program.
- Open the file, or web document/page you want to save in PDF format.
- Select "File-Print" as usual.
- In the print dialogue box, select PDF995 icon as printer, then "print".
- On the next dialogue box, type file name and select file location, then "Save".

BVWayne:
If you have images on memory chip/hard-drive, you can open the desirable image, save in a PDF with descriptive name. I think there are better programs for mass conversion though. I am in love with PDF995!

 

[BVWayne]

That's great. I'm definitely going to download that. Been on the road and with the holiday - this has been a nightmare. For now though, I did try and take some tight pics of some of the trusses I could get to, without bringing more ceiling down. I want to keep you guys in the loop, so if you have any advice, either way, it is welcomed. Just a few, as I'm hoping to send a real photog to take better pics. Actually, I'm going to try and take some time to download that software now, and put all the photos together. This is just one... and you'd hate me if I posted them separately. More to come.

Wayne D. Smith, Jr., CBO, MCP, CEAP, LEED AP