Keeper of the Knowledge Mentality 4

[sam74]

I was just curious if to see if anyone else had similar experiences in the past or now for that matter.

I started in the field doing surveying and construction inspection for about a year an a half in the mid to late 90s. When I came back in the office (a 50 year old full services consulting company) only very few people had limited access to the internet.

It appeared as if all the older guys had rat holed all the information they could in order to be the go to person or only distribute it as they saw fit. That is what I mean by "keepers of the knowledge". Job security was my reasoning behind them doing this.

Well a few years down the road and everybody has internet access and access to much if not all the information. There went much of the "keepers of the knowledge" job security. I know that a lot of these guys have lost their jobs in the recession. I have also twice now.

When I do have opportunities to interview sometimes I can't help but wonder if the guys interviewing me are some of the leftover "keepers of the knowledge" who are scared that I've got field experience and can do my own design.

One in paricular was on my first layoff. I applied for a civil designer position because that was what was posted (I've got a PE). I got a four hour interview meeting amongst several different people. The first and most important would be my direct supervisor who had been there 15 years and had a civil designer doing his design. I explained that I could design and stamp my own work and I think I scared him off.

Any thoughts on this rambling post?

 

[KENAT]

ISO9000 may encourage them but I hate having to do them;-(.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[SteveMartin]

Ah, you're not looking at it the right way Kenat. If I'm writing the work instruction then MY way of doing task X is what gets documented/becomes official. I volunteer to write the documentation for the things that matter to me (and for those that don't, I agree - I run away if possible).

 

[KENAT]

I'm looking at it as the task that usually gets given to interns or incompetent manufacturing engineers (no I'm not saying that all manufacturing engineers are incompetent, just that some of ours are) and offers not a jot of career advancement or 'job security' etc. Oh, and I don't mind as much if it's the WI for something I actually designed or at least got to do but that's only about 20%.

Heck, it's almost as bad as being responsible for CAD Admin - which I am.

Posting guidelines faq731-376

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

(probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484​

 

[jmw]

I think we covered this somewhere before (some time ago) but while ISO 9000 has its advantages when used optimally, in many companies, once everything is documented it is as if they documents have been carved in stone. "Thou shalt not alter anything once it has been documented." Becomes the rule. The problem is that accurate documenting and maintenance of documents doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the product or procedure is good or bad.
In well run organisations it is a great benefit. But in others it becomes a barrier to improvements.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Neubaten]

I've known a fair share of KoK folks, some of them with a true dedication and passion to cloack info on everyone.

God they make me furious. But also they motivate me, and I love their faces the times I came up solving problems in their heavily guarded field of expertise.

Also, I follow a empirical law: "The more reluctant a person is to share and discuss his knowledge, the lesser his/her intelligence"

 

[SomptingGuy]

"The more reluctant a person is to share and discuss his knowledge, the lesser his/her intelligence"

Sounds a bit like "traffic warden syndrome". The less power a person has, the more they wield it.

- Steve

 

[Neubaten]

Yep SG nice observation, I agree with that, but also I've seen some KoKs up the ladder.

No matter at what position, I see KoK as a way of getting permanently stuck in a position.

 

[TenPenny]

I think KoK is an awesome TLA for this type of person. Somehow, it just sounds appropriate.

 

[Neubaten]

It was an easy one!

 

[RolMec]

Ke-o-Kno's ..., well, somehow they are on my side?! if they are on the same payroll..think payroll membership works in both directions.. only the knowledge of the person has to be extracted... pro bono publico...amicably if possible...
I've met WORSE. External consultant, hired to find out, now that's something. Think item 2 on scope of services list must be "find scapegoat to save a.. of important person". Maybe they are the ultimate stage of evolutiuon of KoK's?
Would like to discover some workaround there.

R.

 

[plasgears]

Work Instructions is the realm of the experienced engineer, not the newbie. My insecure eng mgr [not a graduate engr] panicked when I produced a number of WI, so he wrote one that was made to predate mine. What a shlamiel.

 

[jmw]

Matter and Anit-matter.

There is another syndrome which can be equally damaging and which is the absolute opposite personality.
These are the people who if asked will tell you all you need to know and a hell of a lot more besides.

One little question and you get the history all the way back to Noah with side tracks into other tenuously related territories.

This is sometimes just as bad as KOK syndrome.
It is a poor qualification for a consultant because he is likely to end up giving a lot of free consultations that should have been chargeable.
This web site is evidence of a general willingness to share but some of us some times share too much.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TenPenny]

I worked with a guy, someone later said about him, 'If you asked him what time it was, an hour later you'd know where the watch was manufactured, where the ore was mined, you'd know all about the refining process and the manufacturing steps, but you still wouldn't know what time it was...'

 

[sam74]

I've met that type also, just not as many. A phone call about a simpe question turns into 30 minute conversation. Go out into the field to survey some items off another individuals control points. We dig around in the grass medians a year after the original survey for a quarter of the day. Finally I'm like why don't we find some control in the pavement or concrete. Oh okay is his response. Back in the office once, his company phone starts ringing and he runs around saying whats that, whats that, oh thats my company phone. Very disruptive persons I agree but I have not met that many of this type. I'm sure they have their reasons like have to feed the family and such. I don't have that problem/blessing. I figured I'd rather be secure where I'm at before having a family.

 

[apsix]

More like 'Dispenser of the BS' (DoBS) than KoK.

 

[mauricestoker]

I like the term "Suppository of Knowledge" (SuK). I worked with a buttmunch that was the SuK. One time he was demonstrating his oral/alimentary flexibility by telling his audience (the engineering and maintenance staff) how when he worked at a DPW, they would put in fake t-stats for people that complained too much about the temperature. The whole room busted out laughing because his fake t-stat was glued to the wall behind him. His lapdog assitant was a SuK in training (SukIT), used to always say "my boss dictates this and my boss dictates that." Only one way to shut him up and that was to tell him nobody else cares how his boss dictate.

 

[berkshire]

Anecdotal story on KoK mentalities, In the early 1970's I was working for a company making coin wrapping machines. At this time they were a start up and they had about 4 pre production machines working. The next task was to get them into production. No matter what we did, these machines would not work until the head machinist had " breathed" on them.
We were given instructions to watch this guy and document everything he did, and what adjustments he made. He was instructed by the boss to cooperate with us and explain his reasons for making the adjustments he did.
The results did not change, after 3 months of "Sharing"
we were no further ahead. Finally The boss called an all hands meeting, and announced to the group that he was firing this guy.The boss explained to us that since the KoK was keeping and not imparting his knowledge, we were better off not using him and finding out for ourselves.
Surprisingly in another month we had the machines running quite well. Then we got bought out, but that is another story.
B.E.

 

[SomptingGuy]

Similar story.

When I was a sponsored student, one of my summer placements was on the shop floor, in a factory that manufactured starter motors and alternators. One of the machines turned strip metal into brush boxes, via several punching, folding and cutting operations at various stations through the machine. It had an indexing feed mechanism that needed to be precise so that punches hit the pilot holes exactly, otherwise they'd break, halting the machine until a new punch could be made in the tool shop.

The machine was set up by an oldish guy, who wore white overalls and had pencils in his breast pockets. A stereotypical KoK. The instructions for it were long gone, but there were some assembly drawings of the feed mechanism. My job was to design some modification to the feed mechanism to make it more accurate and repeatable.

After much study and a few cuts and bruises, I realised that the KoK had been setting it up wrong all the time. There was some resistance, but I managed to persuade his superiors to give my "new method" a go on a batch or two ... failures disappeared. I never found out whether he was deliberately setting it up wrong so as to keep his position of strength.

- Steve

 

[jmw]

Yeah, and either is possible.

I mentioned the guy with his demand that no electronics should be factory configured. His job was safe but by his own admission, the majority of systems in the field probably operated at the just barely functional level.
A lot of clients would get upset and a great many probably considered the problem to be not with their setting up of the system but with the product itself.

If you wanted to see herd mentality along the same lines, you could do no worse than compare, as I had the opportunity to compare, the new Nissan Car plant in Sunderland where the production line conveyor never stopped and the guys would use their breaks to refill their bins, with one of those Leyland dinosaurs where the conveyor was never running whenever I visited and where there Nissan had all automated filling for fuel, oils, windscreen fluids etc., the Leyland plant had pallets of 500ml bottles. (more convenient, I'm sure, for "perks").

Yes, some people don't care if the company they work for goes down the pan.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[terje61]

KoK's or SuK's are one thing. What I am more worried about is that most new people asking questions only want the answer and not the reason why. Going back to the analogy with the fish: they only want a fish today and not learn how to fish.
How do they think that they will ever become experts?