Keeping Precision Grinding Jobs in the USA??? 1

[RamingtonStall]

Is your Company or are you personally doing anything to help keep Precision Grinding Applications in the USA?

Or perhaps you see all of Precision Manufacturing moving to China in the next 10 years? What do you think?

What do you recommend that you feel should be done?

Note: In 1982, everyone would have asked the same question but substituted the word "China" with the word "Japan".

Look forward to comments and debate.......

RamS
SAT SuperAbrasive Techniques, Inc.

http://www.IndustrialDiamondCBN.com

 

[kgt74]

Hi RamS,
very profound q I must say! I work in India for Timken as a research engineer but went to grad school in the US. I work in the super finishing and engineered surfaces area. worked sometime in the US and still consult a lot for our US plants. Have been working with a lot of Cinn #1 and #2s as well as Healds usually for upgrades to old old machines here in India. But we have the same threat from China and dumping and Indian industry is choking right now.
Seems to me the biggest problem the US machine industry has today is that the wealth of research done in schools in the US are nor accepted by industry. They are all happy to run to china or india to cut costs (often just production costs, READ: Labour) but no one bothers about new technology at all! So obvious result - no big US grinder provider except Hardinge (that recently "bought" a lot of european companies). I would seriously look at bringing new technology in ASAP or even India is going to beat the US in this field. Also, mosts american labour unions shot themselves in the foot (still do it today) with high demands sending costs very high. I feel to get the competitiveness you gotta do some giving back. Hopefully things will come back and someone will see light!

Incidentally, I have seen the best upgrades to the Old Healds coming from India!!!

kgt74.

 

[RamingtonStall]

kgt74,

Thanks for your Thoughtful response. A very good point to include other countries such as India in this thread and your experience with Timken USA and India brings a very good perspective. It is interesting that India is also being bypassed for China due to labor costs. Especially since India is excellent for the Information Services Industry and for which a friend of mine has made a very successful Grinding Cycle Monitor.

I agree that the Unions have shot themselves in the foot, but Management also took the Quick Fix solution as long as they were able to pass the increased costs on to the current product purchasers. They always knew that it could not go on forever, but didn't worry about it as long as the "Stock Market Analysts" gave them a clean bill of health.

We have long talked about involving the Universities more, especially when we had such good success with the Universities in Japan in the 1970's. The problem always seemed to be that Universities and Industry were talking PAST each other rather than TO each other. The University Programs which were really successful, such as the Mechanical Vibration Analysis in the 1960's became businesses of their own in the 1970's where experts at the University level stayed with the University only as long as they needed to do so to have access to the best University/Government owned equipment. Once the Financial incentives switched to be infavor of moving out on their own, the experts left and set up their own consulting companies, sometimes leaving both the Industry and the Universities "holding the bag". Frankly speaking, this made it very difficult for later engineering students to get the mutual trust which was required for University and Industry to work together.

BOTTOM LINE: There is a lot of Available Expertise and it seems that most of it is finding its way to China or being forced there by companies who are forcing their component suppliers to buy components from China due to the low labor costs.

==========================================================

(For my background, I was with Cincinnati Milacron, Mechanical Enginner, primarily on Centerless Grinders from 1966-1974 when I left to join GE Superabrasives to develop Centerless Grinding Applications with CBN, diamond, and finally Product Management for the Diamond/CBN mesh and micron products etc.

Most recently, my company has been supplying Vitrified Superabrasive Bond Technology Packages and engineered Dia/CBN products to help wheel-makers and End-Users improve their grinding operations by using "Point-Of-Use Engineered" Structured Porosity Vitrified CBN or Diamond grinding wheels. The goal has been to eliminate or greatly reduce the amount of Dressing that is required for each specific application on each specific machine, etc. The process takes in all of the grinding and product parameters to provide application and machine specific "Free cutting", low maintenance wheels with ability to produce excellent finishes, at a fraction of the cost. i.e. Give em the world at a fraction of the cost so that they can retain the overall production rather than moving it off shore.)

============================================================

Cheers! ([: ^ )

RamS



SAT SuperAbrasive Techniques, Inc.

http://www.IndustrialDiamondCBN.com

 

[kgt74]

RamS,
Hey, I like the cheers bit. Looks like you are up my line of thinking. I am a big beer fan (though not a guzzler or an AA case!!) and enjoy that bitter, any kind, especially Leinenkugel beer.

But seriously, I suppose a whole lot of people have issues with this kind of cost migration. We here at Timken Research India work some with CMTI, which is our national manufacturing tech lab. They have a UNIDO (United Nations Industrial Development Org) tie up and they do a lot of work with smaller suppliers. Recently, I attended a workshop on a SWOT analysis for the Indian manufacturing industry. Seemed to me that industries here are going the US way. Peenya, South Asia's largest industrial zone, has almost been wiped out (they spoke of figures of nearly 40% of good companies being gone or under government protection. The skilled labour (workman) market is flooded with good people no one has use for!!! It was atrocious to
see the numbers on the charts. And nobody has a clue to a solution. But the issue here is, since our suppliers are getting wiped out, the pressures on my costs are very high. That gain creates new problems of its own.

And our government (esp my city, Bangalore) seems to be interested only with the IT industry. All sops there, none to the manufacturing section. In fact, the next time
you call 1-800-ATT the answer will be from India, with the newfangled fad for BPOs. Sorry about the big email, but I personally wanted to talk to people to see what
others are doing to about this. But if you are interested, they had a CD on the state and future of Indian manufacturing. I can try to send you a copy. Lemme know.

Incidentally, India always had a very strong machine tool industry though we followed more soviet/czech/european technologies. In fact, Overbeck made some of their ID grinding machines from India for the past 20+ years. But, things are changing now and very fast.


regards,
kgt74.

 

[RamingtonStall]

kgt74,

A Pint of Bitter sounds Great! Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I would like to check out the CD on the State and Future of Indian Manufacturing. I expect that it will give clues which are applicable to solving similar problems throughout the world.

I am confident that eventually the people of China are going to decide that they like to eat and live good lives that they see in the movies. Eventually, China will swing from an unlimited source of Cheap Labor to become a Country of huge Market potential for products made in the other industialized countries as well as China.

You can find a mail address on the web site listed below.

Joy! ([:^ )

RamS

SAT SuperAbrasive Techniques, Inc.

http://www.IndustrialDiamondCBN.com

 

[funnelguy]

Just a couple of thoughts. Admittedy jaded, but perhaps they will cause a bit of discussion. Manufacturing is now at a point where companies will move/create plants for no reason other than the low cost of labor and freedom from environmental laws. No longer can we identify corporations as contributing members of our communities or societies. Mexican labor is now considered too expensive!

I don't believe China can be equivocated with Japan. Japan has limited natural resources, land area and a limited supply of workers as compared to Japan. I predicted that Japanese companies would level out against US companies 30 years ago. I don't see that happening with China anytime before my 7 year old son dies from old age. And if and when it does, surely there is another pool of cheap labor in another developing country.

So what is it we expect from our employers and governments? Is cheap labor and freedom from those pesky environmental laws the only thing that matters? Labor costs did not put the 3rd largest steelmaker in the world into banruptcy. Lack of vision did. Labor costs per ton of steel vs. Japanese suppliers was never an issue.

Any fool can outsource to cheaper labor. No MBA required there. Could we at least agree to restrict trade to those countries or companies that could demonstrate compliance to international environmental and labor laws? Otherwise we might find ourselves in a situation where slaves working in unsafe conditions are producing our goods. Is everyone OK with that as long as it happens in some other country?

 

[ornerynorsk]

Hi funnelguy,

I think the piece of the formula that is the "magic bullet" is greed. Most companies, big or small, will not do the right thing if it costs more than the standard answer. This is why American business, and quality, have gone down the tubes. Anybody remember American goods that were produced 30, 40 years ago? The crap that they produce now is horrible. This is a generality of course, there are companies that still do a super job, but they are few and far-between. I remember back in the 70's and 80's when Indian and Chinese tools and supplies became available en masse here in the US, everybody laughed. The quality was pretty bad. But we were sure intrigued by how cheap it was. And we all know the rest of the story.

 

[RamingtonStall]

funnelguy,

I have been wondering if all we are doing is exporting our:
(1) Manufacturing Related Environmental problems, and
(2) Slavery.

i.e. Regardless of what the politicians say, every time the minimum wage goes up, more of the jobs go overseas, not that corporations wouldn't send the jobs there anyway to pay for their bonuses. Remember that "Giant Sucking Sound!" that the Little General (Ross Perot) told us about? Perhaps he had the right idea but the wrong country?

Will our Grand-children be arguing in court whether we should be "Paying Reparations" to all of the slaves in China that were paid only $1/day while we were enjoying all of the cheap products back in the 2000's and 2010's??? And how about all of those Chinese workers who died from the working conditions? etc.

ornerynorsk,
I remember well the products that were so good 30-40 years ago. I remember trying to keep my cars running. Hmmmmmm, Mercury Comet 1962, Mercury Montego 1973, Chevy Nova 1970, Ford Country Squire 1966, etc.) Also trying to keep them from rusting away.

The wonderful VW 1969 Beetle had only one thing going for it, namely that it started EVERY time I turned the Key! A Major Improvement over the other cars. Unfortunately, it was a continuous task to fight the rust.

My current crop of Acura Legend and Ford Conversion Van run every time I turn on the Ignition and show no signs of rust well into their 10th year.
Overall, I like the product quality now just fine, compared to then. But I do believe that we need to make sure that we do not export all of our manufacturing jobs.

Cheers!

RamS





SAT SuperAbrasive Techniques, Inc.

http://www.IndustrialDiamondCBN.com

 

[funnelguy]

Some perspective from my own experiences. Greed is most certainly at the root of all this nonsense. But it isn’t just the corporations who are at fault in this respect. Most individuals want cheap products and cannot be bothered with any social conscience at all unless it directly benefits them. It’s the NIMBY thing all over again, except the world is a huge place. Many opportunities exist for hiding bad things from our view.

The US manufacturing numbers have been disappointing for quite a while. Back up a couple of years and remember the warnings we were given about unwarranted optimism in the stock market? Remember how we were told that consumer spending was carrying the economy on its back? Now what we hear is that debt load on the consumer is at an all time high. How exactly will continuing to export more and more jobs enable the consumer to reduce his debt load and begin again to carry the economy with his spending? The US economy will remain stifled until such time as consumer spending picks up here at home irrespective of any other impetus. Replacing $50 VCRs with $35 VCR’s made in an even more repressed state will not improve the US economy. Even Henry Ford understood that his workers would need a good wage in order to buy his products. Protectionism is the solution. Moderated protectionism with a social conscience. Just because. Because we can afford it.

The US (and possibly the world) is in the middle of a period of social regression. The industrial age (and all its wealth building) came about as the result of new technology making each individual’s effort count for more. We are headed back into the darkness of the slavery and caste systems of old. We are now using technology simply to widen our search for new sources of cheap labor (in some cases, slaves).

Personally, I think the quality of manufactured goods is astonishing today. I have heard comments about lack of quality in Mexican and Chinese goods. The lack of quality is not the result of country of origin. When low labor cost is the only target, something else will suffer. Quality costs, relatively speaking. Training, support systems and staff. Documentation and traceability. Non-direct overhead.

I thought Bill Clinton’s statement that we would send low tech, low paying jobs south while keeping high tech, high paying jobs here was both misinformed and racist. What every healthy domestic economy needs is a balance of all jobs. Some of those high tech jobs involve implementation and supervision of new manufacturing technologies. Seems short sighted to me to move the direct labor out of the country and expect the engineering support and supervisory positions to remain here…

.My advice? Get out of manufacturing. Look for a position which requires proximity. Fireman. Police, teacher, real estate, nursing. Forget manufacturing, IT, drafting. All these jobs are easily sent across the seas. If you must work in the industrial sector, work for a privately held corporation. Meanwhile, I’m going to have my kids’ IQ tested. I suppose I’ll have to send them off to work in some other country if the test scores aren’t high enough.

Every country should strive to have a strong domestic economy. Every country should manage its import/export affairs to the benefit of its people. Not its corporations. These are just my opinions. Meanwhile, my kids know I try not to buy Chinese stuff. Not because I dislike Chinese people. I like Americans.

Lastly (and this is only slightly tongue in cheek) I think the USA should buy Mexico and Cuba. Makes all kind of sense to me! Borders would be easier to enforce. Tourism possibilities are endless. How hard could it be? These are impoverished countries whose populace WANT to be Americans. 51st and 52nd states! Hey, why not?

Sorry for the tome, delete it if you want.

 

[RamingtonStall]

Probably time to get back to the original question:

Is your Company or are you personally doing anything to help keep Precision Grinding Applications in the USA?

Or perhaps you see all of Precision Manufacturing moving to China in the next 10 years? What do you think?

What do you recommend that you feel should be done?



IF we are going to keep precision manufacturing jobs in the USA, India, Europe, etc, What are we needing to do? and, who is going to do it?

Rave on!

RamS


SAT SuperAbrasive Techniques, Inc.

http://www.IndustrialDiamondCBN.com