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Kids trapped in a cave 25

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3DDave

Aerospace
May 23, 2013
10,688
Not a result of engineering, but one that might benefit from it.

The kids soccer team is trapped in a cave. From the graphic on the news it seems there are several pools that have sealed off the exit path. The children are supposed to be unable to swim, though I don't know that that is a special limitation. More concerning is that using scuba equipment might be too complicated for them; not only are they not familiar with it, the water they will move through is so murky that they would essentially be blind, deaf, and unable to communicate so that even guides would be unable to help them escape.

There is no immediate problem for them; they are now supplied with food and water and medical care. They have been without food for a week and will take a while to recover from that.

However, there is no known time at which the water will recede from the cave. I expect that there is insufficient pumping capacity to offset the rate at which it can be replenished. On the news they estimated weeks to months before the cave might dry enough.

Since they are in the cave, the passage was certainly large enough to get in and so there should still be enough room to get out. In particular full-sized adults have made the journey.

A thought occurs to me that it should be possible to pull corrugated tubes through each of the pools and then pump those out. If the ends are above water, there should be no replenishment beyond minor leaks for the pumps to offset. Using these the children should be able to crawl out, and will have light and audible communications to guide them.

The water is apparently only 16 feet deep at most, so the pressure can't exceed 8 psi. Anchorage will be required to keep it from shortening axially, but that should be a few hundred pounds to be useful.

I would estimate that a 24 inch diameter would be enough. I'm thinking of construction as is used for ventilating manholes, possibly with stronger wire.

If the tube obstructs the path for the adults, then they can wait the few days while the tubes are placed, the children escape, and then the tubes can be retrieved. If they are anchored against the cave roof by buoyant forces, they can be flooded again and then pulled back out.


Does this seem like a feasible way out?
 
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I have not heard this discussed, may not be even remotely possible, but can the water entering the system at Monk's Junction be diverted? That seems like the best way to reduce the water level to the point that they could just walk out. Of course, the water has to go somewhere and it's going to cause some down stream problems just like the water they are pumping out.

I did some caving back when I was in college and caves are not nice regular shapes what you are going to be able to slide in a long 24" diameter tube. There are usually abrupt turns, irregular shapes, sharp projections, narrow spots, etc. One of the caves we regularly went in was also partially filled with water. I was pretty paranoid the first couple of times about getting lost because there are very few recognizable landmarks in a cave and they tend to look completely different on the way out than on the way in. The one thing you could count on with the cave we used was that water always flows down hill so if you follow it up stream eventually you came out the entrance even if you took a completely different route. No diving was involved, that would increase the danger enormously.

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dgallup said:
have not heard this discussed, may not be even remotely possible, but can the water entering the system at Monk's Junction be diverted?
I understand that the water is entering from a side passage at Monks junction.
I wonder if the incoming water may be blocked with an inflatable bladder tank. They come in all shapes and sizes.
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Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
dgallup's suggestion is probably one of the most pertinent posts on this subject. The fact of the matter is unless there are some people with underground mining expertise involved in the rescue attempts , then it is unlikely that the best possibilities will be mentioned or evaluated. Having said that , put yourself in the shoes of whosoever is in charge........ probably a Thai military official. Theres supposedly over 1000 persons involved already. How is the leadership supposed to co ordinate all the actual activity, and at the same time evaluate all the well intentioned but possibly mis guided suggestions??

Sealing , or at least reducing the inflows, would probably be best achieved by drilling from surface and then using modified grouting techniques., However this requires survey knowledge of the target area for the drill hole......... probably not available today. Thats also the main problem with the idea of drilling a rescue shaft from surface........ where exactly is the target area. Thailand is not known for its mining expertise, so the leadership might not even know what the right questions are to ask. I suppose if the local topography allows for it , a drain hole could be drilled from below the cave entrance to maximise drainage rates, but I would think that if this was feasible , it would have already been evaluated locally.

The local geology is probably limestone of some sort , which is notorious for large random open caverns. The major problem is the lack of time before rains recommence. I certainly dont know how to proceed . Apparently pumping efforts todate have flooded a large area of farmland, so any and all activities are likely to suffer from the law of unintended consequences.. Not a good situation for anyone involved.
 
Two concerns:
One that there is air where they were found, how much, and where did it come from? If the air was from when it was dry, then the amount is limited.

Two that on one video I saw there were people carrying a yellow pipe, maybe 6 or 8 inch in diameter. Was that for pumping of water, or something else? (air maybe).

It maybe possible to keep the water out, or area dry by pressuring the chamber the boys are in. but maybe that won't work due to air leaks in the cave.

As far as a guide, following a rope in the merkey water is a workable method.
 
My first thought when I heard about this was using the old-style diving bells, the helmets with air pumped in. There's no tanks, some head protection, no mask to leak or lose, no mouthpiece to get lost, and if you strap it on, the hose becomes an extra safety line. You'd still have them moving along a static line, likely harnessed to it, as well.
 
Too many of you are hung-up on the issue of kids having to handle scuba equipment. The only equipment the kid needs to carry is a full face respirator snugly strapped to his face. The tanks would be carried by another diver. The kid could even be sedated. I would be more concerned about the weather changing and causing more flooding while rescuers dawdle.

The main killer of scuba divers is panic.
 
I agree Compositepro. Including sedation.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
...and they are wasting valuable time... They should be rescuing the kids.

Dik
 
They have to get the rescue equipment to the closest dry ground and set up camp to start hauling the guys out... while this is happening, they have to set up camp at the second closest dry ground to start hauling the guys out from the closest camp... while this is happening, they have to set up camp at the third closest... and, so on. they need a long rope (double the distance, from camp to camp, so it can be pulled back after the guy has reached the next camp. The guy can be attached to the rope with a face mask... it would work if the guy was even attached by his feet...

Dik
 
dgallup - the hose I was thinking of is spiral wound so it could slinky around and go with a local elliptical if required. The problem is the lengths need to be manageable and I see a variety of estimates, but no firm numbers on the length of the waterfilled segments. If they are 50 feet or less and less than a half-dozen then I think it would help, but if they are hundreds of feet long it's going to be more difficult to place than teaching scuba to a pack of children.

Edit : Link to a better map; missing vertical/water topology.
I think they are beyond section 28.

I found it on which has ongoing English language updates.
 
The map is extremely detailed; I wonder how it was developed. Did they actually take survey equipment 'into the depths'?]]

Dik
 
This incident has claimed it's first victim and it does not bode well for the people still trapped in the cave:

Thai Rescue Diver Dead After Falling Unconscious In Cave

Samarn Poonan, a former member of Thailand’s elite Navy SEAL unit, died from lack of oxygen.



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Dik,
Yes, some cavers do take survey gear. The outdoor club at my uni had a reasonable amount, although they have lost the skills and equipment now.
John.
 
English is not the primary language of the Thai. I suspect they looked for "muscle weakening." They've been stuck for two weeks without being able to move much and half of that without food.
 
AJ2 said:
Yes, some cavers do take survey gear.

thanks, didn't know that. I used to do some rockclimbing, and never thought to bring survey equipment... never done any caving.

Dik
 
They may use fairly short hoses, 20 or 30 feet. One diver with the child and a second diver ahead or behind with the air tanks.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter
 
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