KN-95 vs N-95 4

[TugboatEng]

Now that the winds are starting to calm down, maybe it's time that review the engineering information. It's odd that our USA CDC NEVER recommended the use of KN-95 masks. They never existed before 2020 and why would a Chinese standard use USA characters? The CDC edicts always stated N-95 and it was only our media that tacked on the N-95 "OR" KN-95 terminology. Talk about spreading misinformation. If N-95 is truely effective, how much blood is on the hands of our media for pushing the fake KN-95 standard? Also, the waste and pollution...

I'm really surprised that no engineers that understand anything about filtration came forward on this? A piece of Saran Wrap filters better than a N-95. How is the KN-95 standard relevant?

 

[dik]

Tug... I ordered three hundred kn95s two years ago in Feb from China and gave a whole bunch of them away... not as good as N95, but nearly... and they do help. They are much better than the disposable ones or wearing a bandana... Back at the time, there was a feature showing how the different protections were effective in stopping water droplets... Testing was done with a 'mechanical sneeze dummy' that provided a 'standard sneeze'. They were surprisingly good.

https://nypost.com/article/kn95-vs-n95-masks-experts-explain-the-differences/

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

Water droplets is an obsolete argument, it's long since been proven that the transmission is aeresol. However that's irrelevant.

As engineers we have standards and testing methods to evaluate the performance of materials and products. Can anybody produce any documentation that relates to STANDARDIZED performance characteristics of the KN-95 masks? Especially, anything that predates 2020 or was the KN-95 simply invented to sell to the ignorant?

When taking filter performance, looking at particle size is one dimensional. Saran Wrap and N-95 can both filter particles but one filters particles with much less pressure differential. KN-95 masks bypass around the filter vs N-95. Anybody that wears glasses knows this.

 

[dik]

sorry... aeresol... not water droplets. wrong word. The masks work a lot better than nothing and saved lives.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[TugboatEng]

The definitions are quite different. We are all learning how important definitions are lately.

How can you quantify their effectiveness when you can't quantify their performance?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

the main problem with the KN in UK and europe is they are not certified as compliant to anything they are just declared KN standard without any certification.

The actual standard isn't much different to US or EU.

But because they are not certified or tested then they can be made out of recycled toilet roll. It's more a problem of non-existing import checks on the actual certification compliance than the actual KN standard it-self.

A properly compliant KN95 mask will perform much the same as a N95 or FFP2 in Europe.

 

[TugboatEng]

The KN is not a standard. Nowhere is it documented what is required to achieve the standard, it only parrots the particle size value. You're right that a toilet roll can achieve the same standard of particle size filtration but you can't breath through one.

N-95 respirators utilize electrostatic filtration to achieve high filtration efficiency with back pressures that align with limitations of lung pressure and poor perimeter seals. The N-95 elements are much thicker and more loosely blown than the KN masks.

Regardless of your view of the importance of masking, the disaster is that the engineering community remained silent despite the clear spread of misinformation.

 

[JohnRBaker]

According to this website, there's almost nothing different between N95 and KN95 masks, just the standard by which they comply, but when it comes to the masks themselves, there is almost NO difference whatsoever:

https://smartairfilters.com/en/blog/whats-difference-between-n95-kn95-masks/

Also keep in mind that 3M is one of the largest manufactures of KN95 masks. And please watch the video and look at the chart comparing the various standards used around the world.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[TugboatEng]

Who certifies those results. Why is there zero mention of KN-95 before 2020 if the GB2626 standard dates back to at least 2006? Why the sudden blind trust of Chinese suppliers?

3M's authorization to market non-NIOSH respirators was REVOKED well over a year ago:

On June 30, 2021, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) announced the revocation of the Emergency Use Authorizations (EUAs) for non-NIOSH approved respirators from China and other countries outside the US due to multiple factors including the increase in availability of NIOSH approved respirators. This revocation is effective July 6, 2021, and affects the emergency use authorization of such respirators by healthcare personnel in healthcare settings. Additional information is available on the FDA website at www.FDA.com.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/worker-health-safety-us/covid19/airlift/

Revocation is hard denial... I wonder why they would use such a term?

Only 7 days from authorized to rejected? Those multiple factors must have been serious.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's the problem with Chinese certification there isn't any real system there.

So with the way the emergency laws were they could bypass import checks.

EU still required CE certication which can't be done internally in China.

So you do get ffp2 kn masks in Europe but they carry the CE mark.

There seem to be alot of AliExpress products which are USA market which have some nonsense certication on them which is basically a company declared certificate.

I don't have a clue what the USA does for import safety checks.

The stuff that arrives by post has no checks in Europe. The properly imported does.

The kn95 standard itself isn't the issue. Its the lack of import control.

I know you have the UL standard but it's proberly a state function to do the rest of the quality checks. And people would not be happy if it was done federally.

 

[Cool_Controls]

If your face isn't clean shaven then it doesn't matter which one you wear.

 

[RedSnake]

Can anybody produce any documentation that relates to STANDARDIZED performance characteristics of the KN-95 masks? Especially, anything that predates 2020 or was the KN-95 simply invented to sell to the ignorant?

It seems that the difference between N95 and KN95 is just the name of the class because one is Chines standard and the other American, in Europe it would have been named FFP2

These mouth guards/respirators are available in different protection classes.
In the European standard, these protection classes are called FFP1 filters (lowest level), FFP2 filters (intermediate level) and FFP3 filters (highest level).
During the corona pandemic, the WHO has come out by saying that they recommend FFP2 filters or FFP3 filters as protection for those who work in healthcare, belong to a risk group and for those who feel symptoms.
The FFP2 standard can be compared to KN95 (Chinese protection class) and N95 (American protection class).

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[RedSnake]

Why is there zero mention of KN-95 before 2020 if the GB2626 standard dates back to at least 2006? Why the sudden blind trust of Chinese suppliers?

Well it is as Alistair says it is a Chines standard and before 2020 they would have had to rename it either N95 in US or FFP2 in Europe and CE marked it before export.
But when the demand got high and people could buy through internet directly from Chines suppliers the KN95 turned up as an alternative before 2020 you wouldn't have seen it.


“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[enginesrus]

And how many imports were checked for being sterile?

 

[RedSnake]

Probably none.
But as far as I know there hasn't been any known outbakes from packages received either.
A package or product could have been contaminated by anyone that handles it, but the virus could only survive under optimal conditions for a week.
Package sent around the world rarely travels under such conditions.
To hot, to cold, to dry it would have been destroyed.

“Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.“
Albert Einstein

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And how many imports were checked for being sterile?

None of that grade in Europe. What they were hot on in Europe was contamination with various chemicals from the production process. Which is deemed to be a huge issue with imports from China and also a few other nations USA included. It's one of the big contentions with the trade wars between EU and USA there is all manner of crap which the USA allows for various reasons which is out right banned in the EU and UK. But to ensure its not present would require the complete manufacturing process to change.

We didn't actually use that grade much, there was only a couple of counties had a requirement for that grade hard and some soft. From memory from work, Germany, Austria and Switzerland. The rest of us just had to use surgeon mask style masks.

And there is research being done into the differences between different countries and virus spread depending on which type of masked used. Don't have a clue where it is leading.

There has been absolutely loads of quality data produced by the western healthcare systems which have been exposed to a variety of methods and actions with varying compliance rates.

Its going to take a few years though until the quality studys come out that aren't just for social media clickbait or political soundbites. Quite a lot of the political soundbite stuff the people involved I suspect will be long gone by the time it gets through the system.

 

[cooperDBM]

I had thought the main difference in efficacy between the two is that N95 use head straps while KN95 uses ear loops. Bushy faces aside and with proper sizing, head straps are better even if the filter material is the same. Is that correct?

 

[dik]

When I ordered them, I never considered that... funny. I still wear one when I go out and have several dozen left. I'm old and wobbly, overweight and have type2 diabetes... not taking any chances.
For my protection and the protection of others.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[JohnRBaker]

I was going to mention that as well, the head straps verse ear-loops. We have purchased at least four boxes of KN95 masks as well as several boxes of the so-called 'surgical' masks (the blue ones) and they all use the ear loops. BTW, the good news is that they're coming down in price and are easier to find.

Getting back to the means of keeping them in place, I've always suspected that if the ONLY option had been head straps, that a lot less people would have ever worn masks. They can be a real pain, particularly for people with a full head of hair, like a lot of women. Granted, now if you are a man with a beard, perhaps you would be better off using an N95 with head straps, but for virtually everyone else, using a mask with ear loops should work just fine. With that in mind, of all the medical facilities that I've had to visit over the past 10 months or so with my cancer treatment and all, I've hardly ever seen anyone using a mask with head straps. Now most of the medical personnel were wearing the so-called 'surgical' (blue) masks with ear loops. Note that I always wore a KN95 with ear loops and no one ever asked me to swap it for something else or to wear something different the next time I came in.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I haven't worn a headband mask the whole time. And only wore the FFP2 masks flying into Germany and Austria, and they were ear loop.

And the ones we get are not sterile, they are though chlorine free and a few other thing's.