Limiting Engineering Enrollment 4

[csd72]

I am questioning the morals more and more of rich countries taking the best and brightiest from the poorer countries through these skilled migration schemes.

For example, the US has one of the highest number of doctors per capita but they are still attracting more from poorer countries such as india that have only a tenth the number of doctors (per capita).

Decreasing the number of american born graduates may just end up with the same situation as the doctors - an American born one is a rarity in these parts.

csd

 

[Twoballcane]

Hmmm...I often think of that of how we take the best from second / third world countries, but the other side of the coin is that these people made the decision to move vs the USA taking them by force. Engineers, Doctors, Scientist, ...etc should make that moral decision to stay in their country to make things better there. Kind of giving back to the community that raised them. However, I have been seeing some trends at networking events (thru gossip and catching up with old friends) of how many engineers are now going back to their home country because now all of the work is there now. The money they make there is stil way less what they make here, but the economy there is so low, they are stil living like kings.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[csd72]

Twoballcane,

Some good points.

I may seem to contradict myself now by saying that I am actually against too many barriers for migrations.
having worked in three countries I ahve taken good advantage of these possibilities.

What I am against is when it becomes long term policy to make up for particular skills shortages by migration. This is a double edged sword it both lessens demand for local talent and lessens supply in the countries where these people come from.

It is really a matter of balance.

 

[Twoballcane]

Not to hi jack the thread, but in a way the second and third world countries are benefiting from this. The people who work in the states send back money and provision (caned food, cloths, shoes, etc) back to there families, so some of the USA money is being spent in other countries. I am a first generation born here in the states. My uncle and aunts are made of doctors, nurses, chemist, pharmacist, who got their education from their mother land and back in the late 60s came to work here. It has been a somewhat tradition to pack boxes with stuff from the nickel/dime stores and ship it to other family in the mother land. Also, wire money to the mother land so they can spend it there. So if you want to think about it this way, it is a trickle down affect (remember the Ragan days). So second and third world countries may be loosing some professionals, but gaining a revenue stream back to their country.



Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[csd72]

Twoballcane,

You make a good point but, handouts dont solve poverty, only a stable economy can solve poverty. You need professionals working inside the economy to create that, particularly engineers.

It cant be stable without such things as electricity, water supply, transport and communications. All these require engineers.

csd

 

[Gymmeh]

Some people of talked of engineers unionizing or something to insure fair treatment and quality in our profession, isnt that what getting a PE is for? to show that the person has met the standards to be recognized as an engineer?

 

[KENAT]

PE = Union

Um, I don't think so.

A lot of engineering doesn't strictly fall under PE. Heck, at least here in CA there isn't a PE for aerospace because aero is all exempt.

Now relevant professional bodies, such as ASME, SAE etc sharing some goals with unions, up to a point I suppose.

Limiting enrollment probably not that great a plan. Only giving government financial aid to a certain number of students in each subject area, maybe.

However, I can think of plenty of subjects to start with before engineering. At my uni in the UK I swear there were more ‘population scientists’ in one year than the entire UK probably needed in a lifetime!

Or, how about trying to make sure that the people taking engineering actually have an interest in engineering/becoming engineers when they graduate. So many people on my aero course at uni just seemed to be doing it because they were good at math and physics and engineering, especially aero, was considered difficult.

They had no interest in aircraft or engineering and yet the government was paying/subsidizing for them to take engineering. I realize the US govt doesn’t subsidize degrees as much as the UK does (/did historically) but none the less…


KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[csd72]

Good point kenat,

In Australia you get a sort of student loan from the government called Austudy to cover tuition. You have to pay back a certain percentage each year when you earn over a certain threshold.

Some people do completely useless arts degrees and never earn over the threshold so they never pay it back (and never contribute to society either.).

csd

 

[Gymmeh]

csd72,I was going to say the same thing about liberal art degrees I know alot of liberal art degrees working the MacDonald’s, etc. My friend with an MS in Art is $125k in loans and works on an assembly line!

Its really easy to get a student lone in the US, but you have to pay it back after 6 month after graduating. You can opt to wait longer to pay it back but the interest is added to the bill.It would be impossible to go to school without a lone in the US unless you have rich parents or good at sports, with final cost being around between $50k for a state school to $125k for private schools. I had two scholarships and they paid for my books and rent...


Controlling lone amounts in order to control engineering acceptance does not make sense. Incentives to stay in the field after graduation are what they need.
What the gov’t should do to insure that students stay in their field of study, they get a Tax break to help pay back their loans for the first 5yrs (or so) if they work in their field of study. And give tax breaks for people pursuing a FE/PE or professional organizations, at least for a couple years out of school. Since pay is often experience based in engineering, this would keep new graduates in the field long enough to get the experience to get the high paying jobs and not be drawn to other sales or business positions with higher starting pay.

(Sorry if this doesn’t make sense, I am on some good pain meds right now)

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

"It would be impossible to go to school without a lone in the US unless you have rich parents or good at sports"

Oh come on! I paid vitually every cent for my education (no rich parents, couldn't catch a football if my life depended on it). No loans, a few small scholarships (<$3000 total), no other help. I had a job. I worked ~30 hours a week on top of a full load of classes. Okay, so it's not as fun and laying around and having your parents pay for everything, but plenty of people do it without help and without loans.

 

[KENAT]

Yeah, my wife pretty much funded herself plus some small scholarships.

In fact I think I built up more student debt in the UK than she did here, and I went back when you still got a grant and no tuition!

However, with the prices some schools charge it must be difficult.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Okay, I was probably a bit harsh there. I agree with you, Gymmeh, that the costs of attending univeristy have skyrocketed in the last 10 years. And I'm sure I wouldn't have been able to put myself through a top tier private school without loans.

There is also the issue that working during college does take some of your focus away from your studies. Overall I found working to be a positive experience primarily because all of my jobs were related to my studies, but I could see circumstances were working could take away from the quality of the education you are getting.

 

[Gymmeh]

I worked at a book store just to get a discount on books

Bruno: Likewise, impossible might be an extreme. But its not easy to pay all by yourself while going to school without financial help and get good grades in engineering.

I dont know many college student jobs that pay $17,000 a year. The link is just for cheap state schools.

http://www.suny.edu/Student/paying_tuition.cfm

 

[Maui]

I attended a SUNY college for my undergraduate education. The grand total for tuition charges for a full four year education was $6000. This was back in the mid 1980s. I paid for it out of my own pocket by saving the money that I earned from working during the summer, and by living at home so there were no bills for rent or meals. I earned excellent grades, which fortunately resulted in the award of a full fellowship for graduate studies at a private university in upstate New York. And I didn't take out a dime in loans. It can be done.

Maui

 

[Gymmeh]

It could be done easly in the mid 80's...
With my summer jobs I could have done it in the 80's!
I had a summer job making well above min wadge-$5000 a summer-and that is not even close to $17,000 a yr. I payed as much as I could then got loans to pay the rest.

 

[Maui]

Gymmeh, the yearly tuition in your link was $4,350, which is lower than your summer earnings. If you chose to live on campus it raises your costs to $17,000 a year. And if you live in the community, you can commute like I did to keep your costs down.

It wasn't easy to do back in the mid 1980s. I earned a substantially lower wage half the summers I worked than what you posted. Keep in mind that the tuition was much lower back then, but so were the wages.

Maui

 

[Gymmeh]

Maui,
I was giving the cheapest case for an engineering degree and it is getting way over analyzed...

I just know I couldnt pay all my bills without a student loan, and I spent alot of time studying and not wasting money... and i worked through school...so in conclusion, the gov't should not use student loans and financial aid as a way to manage the engineering profession -as was stated earlier. (you can see my conclusion on the third paragraph 16 Nov 07 13:17 )

 

[Lion06]

I recently graduated from a state school in which the tuition only was around 12k per year. Add in books and money to actually live on and it is VERY difficult to get through school with no loans. Maybe it is easy if you are 18-22 with zero responsibility for anyone or anything other than yourself, but not everyone goning to engineering school is in that position.
The suggestion being made would essentially limit engineering to those who go to college straight out of high school (which i agree is the way to go but not the apth everyone chooses or has the opprtunity to pursue).
I worked full time the whole time I went to college (it ended up taking 6.5 years to get a bachelor's degree) and while I didn't have any loans, it would not have been possible without my wife making a hefty sum.
I think it would be EXTREMELY difficult to get through a 4 year college program without having any student loans. Not saying it can't be done, but the people who could do it are VERY few and far between.

 

[Gymmeh]

I didnt even drink starbucks coffee, if you bought your on mug to the caffateria you could get coffee for 63 cents!

 

[patdaly]

Boys, what it boils down to is just how bad you want your education.

I am one of those who worked full time when necessary to put myself through school, part time when the money was not quite as tight.

I thought I had it tough until I found out what my Uncle did to put himself through his Engineering degree while supporting a family. In the end, I know I certainly appreciate my degree more than if I had not been forced to pay for it as I went.

As with most things in life, your personal values will drive what you strive to attain.