Liquid Slosh in containers 1

[erickxxx]

Hi,
I am an individual inventor working on a system that eliminates liquid slosh in rigid containers. I would like to find out whether there is a demand for slosh elimination at all. All constructive thoughts and opinions are appreciated. Please help!

Thanks

 

[rb1957]

sounds like it might be appliciable to wing tanks. the current design approach is to use full web ribs as "baffle" ribs, to stop fuel migrating to the wing tip (or root) during manoeuvres.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[erickxxx]

Thanks, my initial idea was for those applications the container could be located inside the fuselage instead of the wings, assuming that my device can deal with the slosh issue, which should allow for thinner wings and more efficient flight. But its a lot of investment for an individual inventor, so I gotta make sure its actually useful.

 

[MintJulep]

Sort of depends on how you are defining efficiency.

Carrying fuel in volume that could otherwise be used to carry revenue-generating cargo or passengers is not efficient for the bottom line.

 

[erickxxx]

By efficiency I mean less fuel consumption due to lower drag without affecting the cargo load. The assumption is that with the current state of art equipment placing the containers in the fuselage will occupy too much space due to the slosh concern, there would have to be multiple smaller tanks which would occupy more space.

Do you think there's a need or place for such an invention?

 

[rb1957]

fuselage fuel tanks have their own issues ... nothing insurmountable, clearly as several planes have them (we've worked on one ... the systems installations were a bitch). most often you'll see them under the floor of large transports (B7x7, A3x0).

why would this allow thinner wings ? i think typical design starts with the wing aero design, then fuel is considered later. (i don't think the wing is designed from the outset to accommodate a fuel volume.)

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[erickxxx]

I think the fuel tanks are considered all along the process. If the wings don't have to hold the fuel, then they could be designed thinner (assuming no change in total lift force required to fly). Wouldn't you agree?

the concept for the invention is simple and I'm hoping that its applications would save a lot of the hassle associated with having multiple tankers.

 

[MintJulep]

Who do you imagine might be the customer for such an invention?

What category and type of aircraft might it be used in?

In general, the wings of an aircraft are not designed around the wing tanks. The wings are designed to meet the aerodynamic and structural requirements. Then whatever space inside the wings that isn't full of other important stuff gets used for fuel tanks because that's about the only possible use for the space.

A nice bonus of wing tanks is that the fuel weight is placed relatively close to the fore-aft CG location, so that burning fuel in the wing tanks doesn't affect trim and balance.

 

[erickxxx]

I see, thanks for the explanation.

The invention would apply to any vehicle that carries a considerable amount of liquids, either for consumption or as cargo. It eliminates slosh and allows for center of gravity control. I posed the question in this forum because I thought airplanes would be a major potential market for the concept.

 

[rb1957]

"If the wings don't have to hold the fuel, then they could be designed thinner (assuming no change in total lift force required to fly). Wouldn't you agree?" ... no ... the wing is designed for it's primary job ... createing lift; being able to carry fuel is a nice bonus ... mind you, this comes with it's own complexity (nothing is truely free) ... sealing wings is an involved design. wing tanks have 2 major pluses ... better fuel distribution (close to the a/c CG) and inertia relief


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[MintJulep]

Railroads have tank cars and over-the-road trucks pull tank trailers. But they've done so successfully for many years, so I don't see much potential market there.

Ships use fuel, and on certain sizes and types fuel slosh might be something where slosh control could be useful.

There are classes of agricultural and construction vehicles where big tanks are sometimes bolted on, with limits on the amount of liquid, speed, grade etc. imposed. So there is a potential market.

 

[rb1957]

maybe ships, trucks, rail-cars are good applications ... just 'cause they've done it for years, doesn't mean that it can't be done a better way.

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[MintJulep]

just 'cause they've done it for years, doesn't mean that it can't be done a better way.

I agree, from the idealistic perspective.

From the practical perspective, unless there is a benefit to the bottom line it won't happen.

 

[rb1957]

quite agree.

you wouldn't be able to mod existing tankers ... presumably they meet the standards fully loaded ... it's not like you can put more fuel into the tanks. new build tankers offer a chance ... amybe this new idea could save some weight in the tank ?? but you probably wouldn't want to make the tank bigger (to carry more fuel).

Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati

 

[MintJulep]

And don't forget that tanks need to be cleaned sometimes, and inspected occasionally.

Does the invention make those tasks harder or easier?

 

[erickxxx]

It added a little to the inspection but not that different for cleaning.

 

[erickxxx]

The concept is supposed to eliminate 80-100% of the liquid slosh, depending on the design. I'd love to share more info, but you understand why I can't discuss the how.

thanks for sharing your thoughts. If there's anyone who has more to say please don't hesitate.

 

[IRstuff]

Good luck with that. The typical "inventor" invariably seems to think that no one but themselves is smart enough to invent a solution, particularly for things that have been around for decades. Sloshing has been, and is, a problem for many applications requiring large liquid storage tanks, and in each case, someone has already come up with a solution:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/re...&query_txt=slosh+preventer&submit=&patents=on

Unless you can show demonstrable improvement in cost-benefit, the prospects are dim.

TTFN
faq731-376

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[erickxxx]

I admit that I'm no inventor until a patent has been granted for an invention of mine!

I agree with you IRstuff. I've known of these other solutions and am not under the impression that nobody has a solution. I believe that I have an interesting improvement, but not sure if the additional improvement is worth the investment.

The link was helpful, I actually had an attorney perform a patent search where we found a lot of solutions to the problem but none used the same method and none were as theoretically effective as my concept.

 

[tbuelna]

Most commercial aircraft store a large part of their fuel in the wing centerbody. The fuel stored in the outboard wings is constantly being transferred to the centerbody to keep the aircraft CG stable. Fuel tank sloshing is usually not a huge concern with commercial aircraft since they do not experience extreme levels of dynamic forces during normal flight.

However, the fuel systems of fighter aircraft routinely experience huge variation in dynamic forces which would result in significant "sloshing". Also, the liquid fuel systems of rockets also experience huge dynamic forces that can result in fuel tank "sloshing". So you might consider applying your invention to either of these applications.