Loads/Units shown on drawings 2

[EngDM]

How particular are you guys with the proper capitalization of units on drawings? Personally I prefer that everything is shown with the correct letter case, especially when it comes to the units that are named after someone I.E. Newtons or Pascals, but often time I am reviewing drawings and everything is uppercase. So you get stuff in the general notes for a distance such as MM for millimeters, or KN/M.

I know it is unlikely that any errors are actually made from this, since the units are so standardized, but in a case where MPa is shown as mPa, it technically makes a massive difference.

 

[SWComposites]

Upper case is now very irritating to read on drawings. Its use comes from the days of hand written drawing text.

 

[Ingenuity]

those are and shall be "Imperial" units. Not some silly French construct.

That 'silly French construct' that most of the world had adopted, most especially in this digital age. Vive la France!!

Damn, I detest adding up fractions of length measurement in the field.

Metric all day, every day!

 

[human909]

Then the 'style police' will hunt you all down and get you.

From: stylemanual.gov.au

Shit! And unlike the majority of eng-tips users, I fall under the judication ".gov.au" The Australian Government. Do I need to flee the country?

 

[phamENG]

do you specify lb, lbf or lbm for pound?

Pounds? We work with kips.

 

[SE2607]

I also use lowercase for o/c and w/ just because it looks nicer to me.

Just curious, but why do you use "o/c" at all? Isn't it superfluous? For example: 2x10 @ 16" means the same as 2x10 @ 16" o.c. to me.

 

[phamENG]

to me.

Key words right here.

Most contractors will get it. A handful might be dumb enough not to. And then an unfortunate percentage will use this "ambiguity" as an opportunity to "think it was something else" and then charge the owner an extra and blame you for it.

 

[jerseyshore]

Just curious, but why do you use "o/c" at all? Isn't it superfluous? For example: 2x10 @ 16" means the same as 2x10 @ 16" o.c. to me.

pham hit it right on the head (as usual), but I write plans so that a layperson who has no idea of construction has the best chance of interpreting the drawings.

The guys on-site building the things aren't you and me. They're not design professionals. They're not the owners of the company. Or the superintendents/ foreman. They are guys who just came into the country and were given a hammer and a pallet of 2x4's. 16" to them might mean 16" long (see stuff like that before). Always best to dumb it wayyyyy down.

 

[human909]

"For example: 2x10 @ 16" means the same as 2x10 @ 16" o.c. to me."

Key words right here.

Most contractors will get it. A handful might be dumb enough not to. And then an unfortunate percentage will use this "ambiguity" as an opportunity to "think it was something else" and then charge the owner an extra and blame you for it.

I am confused that you guys are saying that 2x10 @ 16" o.c. is dumbing things down for laypeople, dumb contractors or guys who just came into the country, O.C. or O/C means nothing to me!

Both expressions have a heap of assumed knowledge in them required for you to be able to correctly interpret them.

 

[jerseyshore]

"For example: 2x10 @ 16" means the same as 2x10 @ 16" o.c. to me."



I am confused that you guys are saying that 2x10 @ 16" o.c. is dumbing things down for laypeople, dumb contractors or guys who just came into the country, O.C. or O/C means nothing to me!

Both expressions have a heap of assumed knowledge in them required for you to be able to correctly interpret them.

The point is that you eliminate a potential for "guesswork". And if someone doesn't know what it means they can ask or look it up easily. I put it in the same category as writing Flush/dropped. Or LLV/LLH.

2x4 @ 16" long? 2x4 @ 16" high? 2x4 @ 16" deep? Even if they don't know what o/c means, someone can understand that it means something.

 

[EngDM]

"For example: 2x10 @ 16" means the same as 2x10 @ 16" o.c. to me."



I am confused that you guys are saying that 2x10 @ 16" o.c. is dumbing things down for laypeople, dumb contractors or guys who just came into the country, O.C. or O/C means nothing to me!

Both expressions have a heap of assumed knowledge in them required for you to be able to correctly interpret them.

A lot of drawings I've seen have an abbreviation legend.

 

[Denial]

Unfortunately a lot of "writing contexts" do not support the   "feature", and do not provide equivalent functionality by other means. Similar problems arise if you like to use non-breaking hyphens.

 

[Luceid]

A lot of drawings I've seen have an abbreviation legend.

Do some drawings not? I am not yet licensed, but I feel like I would be pretty nervous using abbreviations if they aren't explicitly defined somewhere, even for the common stuff.

 

[jerseyshore]

Do some drawings not? I am not yet licensed, but I feel like I would be pretty nervous using abbreviations if they aren't explicitly defined somewhere, even for the common stuff.

I rarely see legends. Maybe on arch plans, but rare for engineering dwgs. I try to use common abbreviations (for industry standards) and write out anything that is atypical. But to me some abbreviations is a lot better than none.

 

[canwesteng]

Had a contractor try and say O/C was clear spacing when he messed up the rebar placement... without the O/C there I guess it would have been a bit more of a pain.

 

[JStephen]

Normally, on drawings, it just doesn't matter whether it's lbf or lbm so it's just lbs. The distinction comes up in the calculations.
On the "lower case x"- there IS a "times" symbol which should properly be used if you want to get too picky. X × x for example.

 

[human909]

There are usually so many things unclear to a lay person on most structural or fabrication drawings that you couldn't begin to try to provide a sufficient abbreviation legend or other explanation. Reading drawings REQUIRES experience, intelligence and specific industry knowledge. To think otherwise is deluding yourselves.

I think the point I tried made earlier flew most peoples heads.

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2x10 @ 16" or 2x10 @ 16" o.c.

What does ANY of that mean?
'2x10' what does that mean? Is that another way of writing 20? If I google that in my country I come up guitar speaks and relationship building advice. An engineer or a carpenter might understand from context that is referring to a piece of lumber but again without local knowledge I'd also be asking what sort of piece of lumber.

'@' what does that mean? Is that an email thing? An Instagram thing.

16" ah, the first clear item in the string IF you understand this is document is using imperial measurements.

o.c. again nothing. and if you try to find out via using normal internet searching approach you end up looking at a 20 year old TV program.

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Some may think my above comments are being deliberately obtuse. No I am just trying to hammer home how much assumer knowledge we are already writing down.

 

[EdStainless]

Dimensions and notes can be a nightmare.
Decades ago I was working as a draftsman for a structural engineer.
We got a set of plans from an architect to do the structural work on.
(one of the few that we would do work for)
And the dimensions and notes looked prefect.
No 'personalized lettering style' or unusual characters.
I found out that they had an IBM Selectric typewriter with a 48" wide platen.
They were all typed!

 

[Ingenuity]

They were all typed!

OMG!

 

[EngDM]

I rarely see legends. Maybe on arch plans, but rare for engineering dwgs. I try to use common abbreviations (for industry standards) and write out anything that is atypical. But to me some abbreviations is a lot better than none.

I agree with this. Large ARCH jobs are abbreviated, and some large STR drawings have a legend as well. I may add a legend to ours, but when you deal with an 11x17 page size for a simple joist reinforcing job, the abbreviations alone would take up 1/2 a page.

There are usually so many things unclear to a lay person on most structural or fabrication drawings that you couldn't begin to try to provide a sufficient abbreviation legend or other explanation. Reading drawings REQUIRES experience, intelligence and specific industry knowledge. To think otherwise is deluding yourselves.

Just because it requires experience, doesn't mean some of these cowboy contractors are going to have it. The last thing I need is different ways to interpret my drawings due to omission of abbreviations.

 

[Luceid]

Just because it requires experience, doesn't mean some of these cowboy contractors are going to have it. The last thing I need is different ways to interpret my drawings due to omission of abbreviations.

This is where my head is at - I would be real bummed to get burned by silly things like this, as it seems like has happened