Making someone else's product

[berkshire]

For the past 10 years I have been maintaining and repairing traction motor resistors, for light rail cars, mostly by cannibalisation.
The maker a European company does not offer this particular part anymore. I am now getting to the stage where repairable parts are getting scarce.
My customer is now asking me, if I can fabricate these parts from scratch. Since this is Somebody Else's product, I do not feel comfortable just making them without some kind of written permission.
My customer is telling me, that the reason the manufacturer, will not, sell these parts to them, is that they are trying to sell them newer units ( Complete rail cars.) and that they are not likely to give me permission to fabricate an obsolete part.
What are the guidelines here? Make them until I get a cease and desist order, or not even try?
I see this kind of thing done with aftermarket suppliers in the automobile industry with older cars. Do they get permission?
B.E.

 

[MintJulep]

As simple a thing as they appear, making a resistor for traction service is non-trivial.

If the contract department of your customer was on top of things, they might already have the right to manufacturer parts that the original suppliers are no longer interested in providing. It's common to have appropriate provisions in current contracts for new rolling stock. Less common for stuff purchased 20ish or more years ago. If your customer does not already have appropriate rights, they are likely in better position to obtain them from the OEM than you are.

Otherwise, become a better vulture. There is DC traction equipment being thrown out en-mass by some transit authorities.

 

[berkshire]

Mint Julep,
You may be pointing me in the right direction.

Quote:"If the contract department of your customer was on top of things, they might already have the right to manufacturer parts that the original suppliers are no longer interested in providing."

I am of course dealing with the maintenance and purchasing division of a bureaucratic organisation, not the contract division. You are right, these cars are 30 years old.

I now have to go up a level or two and ask the questions

As for becoming a better vulture the only other city I know of using this model of train car was in Canada not the USA.

What about the original question, manufacturing without permission?
B.E.

 

[JStephen]

Generally, if the part is not patented, there should be no issue with making it.

Another possibility is whether replacement parts are regulated by the government. I'm thinking this is highly regulated for the airline industry, maybe not so on the rail industry.

You might check if your liability insurance includes manufacturing.

If the manufacturer is currently trying to sell you new gear, then your purchasing people should be in a position to exert some major influence on your behalf to get these parts.

 

[GregLocock]

Practically and ethically I can see no problem with making a replacement functional part that is no longer supplied by the manufacturer... but if it was a trademarked design you might run into problems. For instance I doubt Rolls Royce make 1923 Phantom grills any longer, but I think you'd be hearing from them if you went into serious manufacture of them.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[berkshire]

Thank you for the responses gentlemen.
These parts are buried in a box on the underside of the train car and the only person who ever sees them is the maintenance man.
So I do not think a trade mark issue would come up.

B.E.

 

[MikeHalloran]

In the USA, you don't need anyone's permission to manufacture and sell replacement parts for their stuff.

Reasons for seeking permission anyway include getting:
- a license for use of any patents that may apply.
- blueprints and specifications.
- nonobvious manufacturing processes.

As Mint hinted, getting up to speed could be an adventure.

Perhaps you can get a mfgr. of electric heaters to make a limited custom run on your behalf.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[berkshire]

Thanks Mike,
The blueprints and specs are the main thing, I have these of course to effect the repairs
They also have the usual boilerplate about not using them without the manufacturers permission.
This is where I am getting hung up, fixing a makers product is one thing, using his drawings and specs to make his stuff on your own is another.

As for getting a heater manufacturer to make a limited run, he had better be someone making tape heaters for drop quench ovens or something like that.
The smallest and lightest resistor is fabricated from 3/4" wide by .020" chrome vanadium steel and the biggest are 7/8" by .070" Monel 67. They average between half to 2 ohms at about 3 to 5 kw. At between 600 to 800 volts working.
B.E.

 

[jmw]

Look at car parts.
How do most owners get parts for old cars?
Not only from the manufacturers.
OK, so if you have an old MG there is (was?) a guy in Staines with a warehouse full of old MG TAs that are his Parts stock i.e. for canabalisation. Most every part for any old car has to be reproduced, reverse engineered, canabalised or adapted from some other part.

But even with modern cars the question of spare parts is seemingly quite open.
Mostly the concern about spare parts is if using generic parts voids the manufacturers warranty.
Once out of warranty, your choices are the manufacturer's spares or some equivalent part at half the price. Now all you have to worry about is quality.

Most auto-accessory stores will sell you parts that are made but anyone but the original manufacturer or by the original part manufacturer under another, cheaper, brand name.
So I would guess that the situation re your part is similar. The only exception would be for a component covered by a patent.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MacGyverS2000]

As long as you are not reproducing a patented component and you do not sell the item using the original manufacturer's name, you're okay.


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Dinosaur]

Seems to me you need them to have management put their request in writing ordering you to fabricate new parts from the plans and specs you have. Then you reply that you will make parts from the plans and specs but you don't know if there are legal implications. Then it is all on them.

 

[IRstuff]

"...you don't know if there are legal implications. Then it is all on them"

Not true. Patent infringement can be enforced against ANYONE in the chain, from manufacturer to consumer. McDonnell Douglas was sued for patent infringement by the Lemuelson Foundation for BUYING and USING commercially available bar codes and readers.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[drawoh]

berkshire,

Do you have complete manufacturing drawings for these things?

It is easy to examine a part and scale dimensions off it. Working out the tolerances is more difficult. Working out the materials, heat treats and finishes is a challenge.

JHG

 

[Dinosaur]

So you can be ordered to make a part and if it is patented, but you don't know this, you are accountable, not the fellow that ordered you to do it? This is shocking to me.

 

[MintJulep]

"accountable" and "potentially subject to litigation" are not the same.

 

[berkshire]

Drawoh,
I have complete manufacuring drawings, tolerances, material specifications, and assembly instructions.
B.E.

 

[drawoh]

berkshire,

In that case, the only problem I can see is any notes on the drawing stating that the information therein is property of the manufacturer, and may not be used without permission.

You can always threaten to identify them on Eng-tips!

JHG

 

[doberdorks]

As long as you are not reproducing a patented component and you do not sell the item using the original manufacturer's name, you're okay.

That might depend on location (grin).

SLH

 

[berkshire]

drawoh,
That language is there and is the main reason I asked this question in the first place.
Right now I am waiting to see what comes back from my customers legal department.

B.E.

 

[jmw]

Interesting point.
You sometimes see signs in car-parks etc. saying that "you leave your car at your risk and the management accepts no liability etc."
Nice try.
They cannot avoid all legal liability simply by saying so.
Similarly, some statements made may also not always be enforceable. Let us know what your legal guys say.... but please don't pass us the $/min legal charges.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com