Masters in Engineering Management 3

[skiptomalu]

I have seen a few schools that have this degree or its varaints..some one year some two year programs. Has anyone gone through any MEM program? What do you think about it? Is it worth while for an engineer trying to move into management?
COuple of schools with such programs that I have looked at include DREXEL, Northwestern, Dartmouth, George Washington, and Duke.

 

[MASSEY]

Hey, I don't want to tick anyone off but, I never understood the use of an Engineering Management Degree. Whether it was a Bachelors or Masters or PhD.

I know Engineers move into management, obviously, but at least they have an Engineering degree and then perhaps a business management degree, MBAs are great for that. But to me a person with an Engineering Management Degree is someone who hasn't got what it takes to get an Engineering Degree or a Business Management Degree.

I know I may catch a lot of flack for saying this, but it is my opinion. I can be enlightened however if some people with Engineering Management Degrees want to try.

The Engineering Management Degree students I met in college flunked out in Engineering so they went for something easier.

 

[jproj]

Of the engineering management programs I have looked at thus far, all REQUIRE a degree in engineering or related science degree (science degrees have higher GPA requirements). Persons with technology degrees are only admitted with very high (> 3.8) GPA's and must have over 8 years experience.

One school's definition of their engineering management program:

A graduate program designed specifically for engineers and scientists who want to add management skills and knowledge to their technical undergraduate base. It’s not as technical as a master’s in engineering nor as general as an MBA—it’s the intersection of technology and management.

I view any education as valuable (knowledge is power). Whether the information you gather in your studies is relevant to your field (job) or not is another matter. I am curious, though if anyone has completed an engineering masters program and if so, was the information helpful in your management duties?

jproj

 

[ERaymond]

I have been trying to answer the "What's the value of an MEM?" question myself. From the programs I've seen (George Washington University and Syracuse University mainly), it looks like a condensed version of the MS in Business Administration if the student wants to be in charge of an engineering team or project specifically. Does this sound like a reasonable synopsis?

 

[skiptomalu]

Well...for better or worse..hopefully better!!..I have applied to the George Washington Program...I dont want to remain an engineer all my life and hope to break into management and perhaps other ventures business ventures...heck I've even considered politics!!!!...To me its makes more sense than going for the traditional MBA which is the more popular route--the MEM seems like something that could give me a good "selling point" in future. GWU has over ten different focus areas and I am applying for the "ENgineering and Technology management" focus.

As a young professional who is really not interest in getting a PE. A two year course to wait out this constantly dipping economy is just the ticket!!!...haaaaa...to have two more spring breaks!!!!!

 

[TerryThompson]

Attn.: jproj:

I have completed a masters in engineering at the University of Texas at Austin. After completion of the program I started working as a construction management assistant and now I work as a project manager/engineer. I feel that the knowledge I gained during my masters was instrumental in my success as a project manager. If engineers want to eventuaaly become managers while still being involved in the engineering function, I believe the masters route is the way to go.

Regards

 

[mcherry]

ADVICE: Talk to students who have completed a year of the program's you are looking into attending.

BAD MISTAKE: I went into an industrial engineering masters program at a very "reputable" school and it wasn't what they billed it to be. The class I started with was from Marketing 101. It was really bad. I found out from the "real" students who were just as upset that the entire degree was a bogus degree for a big manufactuer. This program program enables their engineers and execs can get their masters and gives them good PR with the school.

When I complained I was refunded my tuition 100% and I was also told my expectations for a graduate program were too high. Hmmm, very different than the advice I received from my undergrad pre-med advisors.

 

[brad]

To add to mcherry's comment.
Here's my take on it (and I've not only heard it from others, but seen it myself firsthand):
Most of the "topflight" engineering management master's programs (if that's not an oxymoron) are populated by Fortune 100 (mostly Fortune 50) company employees who are on corporate fellowships. Here's the dirty secret--many of these companies won't pay for an engineer to get an MBA, because in the late-80's/early-90's all of those newly-minted engineer BS/MBA's ended up finding management consulting companies to buy out their indenturement contracts. The MEM gives the companies most of the MBA desired skills that they want, but without the negative of doubling the going rate for the employees that they just invested 2-3 years of schooling in.
I'm not making this up--I was a corporate fellow myself and was encouraged to pursue such a strategy. I was in the clear minority when I pursued an actual MSME.

 

[LeifH]

Given BradH's comment is there any consensus on which is more marketable: a topflight school MEM's program or a second tier MBA.

 

[RDK]

As a Canadian there is not as much difference in our universities from top to bottom as there is in the US. So take the following in the sense that I really don’t know what I am talking about.

Both my undergrad and my MBA are from the same university. It is usually rated at or near the bottom of the MacLean’s (Canadian newsmagazine similar to Time or Newsweek) annual ranking of Canadian universities. While I do not agree with the weighting of the various factors my alma matter is ranked there. My son is currently attending (also in Civil Engineering) the top (or near the top) rated school in the same annual report.

We studied the same things, we learned the same skills and after he graduates will have the same professional license. (The main differences in what we studied are also reflected in the current curriculum of my old school.)

I really do not see any real difference in the quality of the education from the top to the bottom. (This is in Canada, US may be totally different)

A big difference is that my son would have gotten a entrance scholarship to my university and just made the cut to the one he is attending. If you take the top 5% of all high school graduates they will do well without regard for which school they attend. I would apply the same logic to graduate schools as well as undergraduate schools.

My son will have a degree from a school that thinks quite highly of itself. The top ranks of business and the profession are populated with other past graduates from his school who think highly of themselves and of their common school. This halo effect will rub off on him and help his career.

The difference in school rankings are in the quality of the applicant that they attract. The top rated schools can attract top applicants who then do well and this reflects credit on their school. That the top applicants would do well after attending any school is not considered. These top school’s graduates then are biased towards others who graduate from the same school.

The networking and halo effect are the real reasons why the applicants do any better than a similar applicant who went to a lower rated school.

Of course as a Canadian the differences are not that great in all of our schools. The costs also are not that much different. All universities in Canada are publicly funded to a great degree. If I ignore the additional travel costs (my son’s school is 3,000 kms away and mine is 100 kms) the cost difference is about $5,000 CDN ($3,000 US) per year. I think that this is a small price to pay for the beneficial effect that the top school will have for my son.

If I had a chance to do it over I would take the top rated school that I could get into. Not because of the “better” education but because of the better contacts and networking opportunities that I would develop at a higher rated school.

If the choice was between an MBA and a MEM, I’d take the MBA. Not because the difference in course work or material studied but because MBA students are from a wide variety of undergraduate backgrounds. As an engineer all your undergraduate contacts and a lot of your work contacts are engineers. You have spent all your time since high school in the company of engineers and engineering students. Why do you want to spend more time with the same sort of people when what you should be doing is broadening your horizons.

If you attend a MBA course you will broaden these contacts into finance, accounting, marketing and other business disciplines. You will learn how they think and how to interact with them. As you get into the upper levels of management you will have to interact with these types and tailor your presentations to their style of thinking and to what their concerns are. Best to practice this in school than fail in the real world.

Of course that’s just my opinion and I am probably wrong.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[GregLocock]

Nice post. Same in the UK, in curriculum and facilities there is very little that I could see between the top 10 universities for engineering, you are basically choosing which uni to attend for non technical reasons (which is fine).



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[testy]

Well said Rick. I do believe the differences in U.S. schools is more perceived than actual. I live near a University (Ann Arbor) that has quite a highly touted engineering program. I have also worked with quite a few graduates of that school, and if they would have just tried a little harder they could be considered mediocre. With that being said, I have also work with some outstanding engineers from the same school. In this country community colleges are generally looked down upon. However, it is my belief many students would be better served starting their education there. The students there are generally older and paying for it so they are more serious as 1st and 2nd year students. Also you don't see as much of the freedom Ya Ya's
(booze & sex) as recently freed uni students.

my 1/2 cent

Ray

 

[GregLocock]

Um. What's wrong with booze and sex?

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[sc]

I always thought it was a part of my Uni course.

sc

 

[testy]

They are both great in moderation, however for many of these kids it is their first taste of freedom and they don't know how to handle it.

 

[MASSEY]

I agree very much with Testy: Community Colleges are the best place to start for many reasons some of which are:

Lower cost per credit/contact hour

Access to profs.

Profs. teach their own classes

Smaller class sizes

Proximity to home/work

Also the Community College is more personable and aides and staff can take time to familiarize students with how the college system works. It is a great place to get the general education classes out of the way so when a student transfers to University they only have to pay the high dollar for their professional major.

One drawback to having only engineering classes at University is that the student has only Engineering courses to take - and that can be quite overwhelming if the student is not determined to succeed.

Community Colleges are a great transition for graduating high school students. And the quality of education, especially for the first two years, is as good or better than the big Universities.

 

[RDK]

In Canada a community college is something totally different than what I understand is the case in the US. I understand that in the US a community college is somewhat like a junior university, but on a local level

Here a community college is primarily a trade school They teach the coursework necessary for journeyman certification in carpentry, electrician, barber, auto mechanic, cook, office administration etc.

They also teach engineering technology to potential engineering technicians. This would be the basic support level technician surveyor, inspector, draftsman etc. While the course titles and descriptions are similar, the content and pace of instruction is vastly different. A community collage really teaches students how to do the routine tasks. An engineering education teaches students how to think.

I actually had a graduate of a community office administration program tell me that her education was equal to an MBA since both had courses in human resource management, accounting etc.

A good friend of mine from high school took two years off and started a civil technician course at the same time that I was starting my third year of university. He complained loudly and long about how tough and how fast the calculus course was. At the end of his ten month course he had taken the about two months of my first year course.

He was actually a better steel designer at the end of his program than I was. He did concentrate in the steel design option. However I took the hydrology and earth structures options with only one fourth year structural course. What he had studied in great detail was how to apply the tables and code rules from the “Handbook of Steel Construction” He actually had little real understanding of how the rules and tables were derived or what to do when the rules did not fit the situation.

I showed him an exam in second year Mechanics of Materials that I had taken. The question gave some physical properties of a leg bone and asked how high would a person have to fall to break this bone. It was really a straight forward application of the theory that we had been studying.

One had to make some reasonable assumptions (how much the person weighed, how much of the impact was taken by the bone etc.) and part of the test was to see if we would make the assumptions, state them clearly and that they would be reasonable. My friend did not have a clue as how to even start the problem. He did see that the weight of the person was an issue but since it was not a given he was stuck there. The concept that he could state “Assume that the person weighs 175 lbs” was totally beyond the teaching that he had received.

If there had been tables in the steel handbook on bone breaking loads he might have been able to solve the problem.

He is now a long distance truck driver.

It is only in the last few years that most universities have been giving any credit in engineering for community collage graduates. The most generous is about one 8 month year for someone with two 10 month years at a community collage.

I have only known a few graduates of these combined programs. They were reasonable journeymen engineers, quite capable of routine problem solving and of applying the science of engineering but they never showed the insight and understanding that is the art of engineering.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[JulieM]

Back to the question of the Engineering Management degree...
I don't really know much about the Masters programs, but definitely think that would be good for someone who has already been working as an Engineer for some time (in any discipline). I went to the University of Missouri - Rolla, and they have an Engineering Management program for undergrads as well as grad students. I took one elective in the curriculum, and while I found that marginally interesting, it was far from enlightening. The general opinion of all non EM students was that it was the program you changed to once you found you couldn't cut it in any of the other majors. I knew many students who nearly failed out of Chemical, Electrical, or Mechanical Engineering and then easily breezed through an Engineering Management program with at or almost a 4.0 Major GPA.
The basic premise of the degree is sound, so I think a Masters program would be a great thing, but as an undergrad program, I think it looks better than it is (and of course those students did end up with good jobs because of the high GPA and corporate contacts the faculty had).

 

[ERaymond]

RDK,

Thanks for the input on MBA versus MEM! That really cleared up a lot of the difficulty I had weighing costs and benefits of each.