Mediocre vs Top Notch university 8

[RunSomewhere]

I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?

 

[GregLocock]

"At Akron you needed to go suck up to the teacher after hours to get taught the necessary material to do well on the tests."

So, you sucked up to the teacher and they taught you outside of class?

Wow, in the UK we had to go to a really posh university to even see a 'teacher' outside of class.



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Noway2]

No actually, I wasn't one of the ones who did and as a result I got mediocre grades in those classes. Fortunately in undergrad a 'C' is still passing. I generally tried to avoid those teachers as much as possible. Overall, I did much better in graduate school. I attribute that both to myself, but also to the difference in quality of the education of the different institutions. I think the fact that a few months after I finally graduated from Akron that two of the 'worst' teachers finally got fired and another one wound up in prison for smearing blood on the walls in a girls dorm speaks volumes.

I still remember (13 years later) this scene from the control theory class at Akron: For the second 5 week period of the 15 week semester, you needed to know the trick of using a protractor (to get distance and angle) to aproximate a transfer function from a pole-zero plot in order to solve 4 out of the 5 test problems. I clearly remember a student asking outright for a demonstation of how to do this (it wasn't in our text books) and the teacher drawing a diagram on the board in about 2 square inches while hiding it from view then grabbing the eraser, clearing it off the board, turning to the class with a big smile and saying, "isn't that easy?". I don't know if the teacher is still there or not.

Now to be fair, there were some teachers at Akron that were quite good and really cared about whether or not the class came away with something of value.

In the end, though, if I had it to do over again I would choose to go to another school. If I could have afforded CWRU at the outset, I would have as it rates as one of the better Engineering schools in the nation.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Don't forget that 50% of the doctors finished in the lower half of their class. But you will never see that on their diploma or resume..

 

[pierdesign]

I've faced this question a lot during interviews and career nights. The answer is always the same.

The fact you graduated is generally good enough, the actual school is less important. Your completed degree, interview performance and personality will get you the job. I assume any job a person gets based largely on the school they went to will probably end up being a lame job, exception for academic appointments.

But, over time, several caveats showed up, and Noway2's eloquent comments remind me.

Companies with strong HR departments enforced hiring policies often look very closely at school's and their various national rankings. This HR process is brutal, spurious and unfair (lumping all people from a school together) and always disagreed with by the technical people (i.e. your prospective boss).

And, as Noway2 says, you learn some schools just don't measure up: I've seen repeated lame assignments, even the same assignment briefs, from certain schools over a 10 year period.

 

[SylvestreW]

I did my undergrad at a top university. I did my masters at a mediocre university (mostly because I was working and attending school part-time). Unfortunately, from my experienced with the classes in the mediocre university, I'd have second thoughts hiring someone unless they really stood out.

It's a fact that you try harder when challenged more, and you get challenged more when surrounded by smarter people. That's not to say that you don't get gems in other schools, but attending a school where you compete against the best forces you to go the extra mile. That's a trait that stays with you throughout your career.

-
Syl.

 

[Twoballcane]

I don't know, but I think in the percentage game. There are the few who go to the top notch schools and then the rest of us go to other schools. So the makeup of hiring mangers should be the same. I would say that most of my engineering management came from decent colleges and some are from MIT or RPI. I help out at new hire orientations and probably every 5th or 6th person I meet are from top notch schools. I came from a middle ground college and here I am working along with MIT grads and in some cases I’m the Project Mechanical Engineer. Not to knock the MITs of the world, I agree that they have some great classes, but once you get out into the real world, its your tenacity that matters.

Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[ctopher]

Some links on school info:

http://www.eduinreview.com/blog/2008/08/2008-college-graduates-report-higher-starting-pay/

http://finance.yahoo.com/college-education/article/105499/Ivy-Leaguers'-Big-Edge-Starting-Pay

Chris
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 08 3.1
AutoCAD 06/08
ctopher's home (updated Jul 13, 2008)

 

[cvg]

If you can only manage "mediocre" at a great university, you probably will not be admitted. Very few of these students do mediocre and if they do they will be shown the door. These universities do not tolerate slackers. They have standards to maintain, and high gpa's for graduates is one of them.

Is it worth it to spend $25k? Maybe, maybe not - since you may also be required to go full time, you might have to quit your job or go part time. That will set you back a whole lot more than $25k unless you can find free room and board.

Is it a good idea to stay at Akron? Probably not based on the review by Noway2

 

[IRstuff]

Mediocre is a relative term. What does a "C" at MIT represent, since that's in the context of the top 1% of all high school graduates.

As for my school, we had a guy who was a senior my freshman year, and graduated the same year I did. Supposedly, one class, "Introduction to Complex Variables," kept him from graduating. I think that most highly ranked schools are not so draconian

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Lion06]

I am thinking about this whole competition thing and I see it from a slightly different perspective. Let me offer this opinion. While stiff competition is always a good thing, I think it is more difficult to be a true standout (not just the best in the class, but a true standout - nearing 100's in all classes... especially difficult ones) with a lack of competition. It's easy to be motivated with competition present, but those who can stay motivated without it have, IMO, greater control of themselves. You won't always have that competition to drive you in the real world. Playing pool is kind of my thing, so I like to analogize to it. It's easy to play better against stiff competition, but the mark of a truly great player is to play great against even lame competition.
Additionally, being the class standout affords different opportunities. I know when I was in undergrad, most people in my structural classes came to me with questions rather than the professors. This provided two mechanisms by which to improve myself. First, I realized that my classmates had rather high expectations of me (which I did not want to disappoint). Second, I remember the saying that the best way to learn something is to teach it to someone else. It helps you think about things in a way that will enable you to answer questions (and think about what those questions might be), and truly make sense of something and truly understand it so that you don't spout your mouth off not knowing what you're talking about and look like a fool later.
Just my two cents.

 

[Lion06]

Just for the record, I wasn't saying either is better than the other.......... just trying to shine a different light on it.

 

[Sideswiper]

I had considered MIT until they sent an alumni to me to talk about the school. He said that most of the undergraduate classes were taught by graduate assistants and that graduate students were the ones who actually spent any time with the professors.

So I went to the University of Oklahoma and got a great education instead.

 

[calguy07]

sideswiper,

sometimes grad students make good teachers. i've had a couple of TA's that created a lot of "a-ha!! now i get it" moments for me...not just in EE either.

as far as i know, actually learning how to teach isn't a part of any PhD program. i've known too many profs that couldn't survive without powerpoint (one of the reasons i hardly went to class).

 

[carnage1]

Funny I have one prof we wish would use powerpoint, that way when you leave befuddled you can at least review the material

 

[Sideswiper]

calguy,

Sure, that's true. But the only real difference between accredited schools is the professors and the amount of research they do. Schools aren't judged by their prowess at educating young minds, they are judged on their professor's research output.

So a highly ranked school is ranked highly because of the professors, but the professors don't make much of an impact on undergraduate education. So how highly a school is ranked is a poor indicator of the quality of undergraduate education available at the school.

I say that all accredited engineering schools offer about the same material, and that the student's attitude is much more important than what school they attend.

 

[calguy07]

sideswiper,

unfortunately that's true; they all do care more about research than teaching. i went to a sub-par college (in my opinion) and had to make the best of it. i think i did, given all the work i put in, but i don't think i know nearly as much as i should given my effort.

carnage1,

that's one benefit of powerpoint but in my experience in lectures where powerpoint is used, "teaching" usually is reduced to a prof simply reading off the slides. reading and teaching are completely different things. in lectures, there's not enough "explaining" of what is really happening. i learned more in classes where profs went to the blackboards/whiteboards and actually drew circuits out and solved problems in a step by step manner instead of pre-made slides. this way you understand the process.

 

[Comcokid]

Many "top ranked" or well-known schools are not a good place to get an undergraduate degree.

Many of the schools that show high in the ratings are schools that are devoted to research. As a result, these schools may be exceptional for someone going to graduate school, but can be a living-hell for an undergraduate degree.

Research professors who are forced to teach many times just have a foreign grad student do the class, or worse, do it themselves. If the emphasis at the institution is research and publishing, the professor will do what he can to get out of teaching undergraduates - even if it means flunking the entire class.

 

[jeebusmn]

If they are hungry, it doesn't matter where they went. School is 4 or 5 years and is like a sprint. Your career is 30+ years long and more like marathon.

 

[cvg]

interesting article

 

[IRstuff]

Mine was a research school, but all the professors taught their classes, live, and in person. The TAs were only tasked to handle the homework and tests. In some classes, they were responsible for secondary class sessions, but the main lecture was always by the professor.

TTFN

FAQ731-376