Mediocre vs Top Notch university 8

[RunSomewhere]

I am currently attending the University of Akron (Akron, OH) but although it's a stretch, I am considering trying to get in to Case Western Reserve University (Cleveland, OH).

"Its better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

What's your opinion? Do you agree/disagree with the quote?

 

[dougantholz]

Maybe there should be a distinction between state schools and private schools. My good (top 20 overall, top 50 engineering) school had really good profs who taught their own classes. We only had TA's for teaching homework work-outs for lower level coursework. I can't imagine a top university where the professors don't teach, but hey that wasn't my experience.

 

[B16A2]

We no longer hire structural engineering graduates from the nearby "mediocre school". Even the best student from that school doesn't match a mediocre student from the better schools we pull from.

I guess take it for what it's worth, but we've been burned too many times from kids being passed through the mediocre schools.

 

[Christine74]

"It's better to do mediocre at a great university than great at a mediocre university."

I agree with this, but not for the reasons you might assume. The purpose of an engineering degree is not to train you to work as an engineer. How many of us perform hand calculations of highly idealized and largely impracticle problems for our jobs?

The real purpose of an engineering degree is to weed out people who are lazy and/or not particularly intelligent. In the US it is illegal for businesses to give job candidates IQ tests, but accepting only people from prestigious universities that require sky-high SAT scores (which are strongly correlated with IQ) is allowed. The better the university's reputation, the more sub-par candidates that get weeded out.

-Christine

 

[Lion06]

Well, if you limit yourself to only candidates from top tier schools such as MIT, you will end up missing out on some pretty good engineers. I'm sure plenty of people overlooked me based on where I went to school and the fact that my degree is an ET degree and not an "engineering" degree. I'm not saying that I'm a top notch engineer, but I'm certainly capable and willing and eager to learn. I also know that I'm a lot more technically competent than some of my colleagues who went to Virginia Tech or Cornell for grad school. You are going to seriously limit the talent pool from which you can draw. I'm not advocating hiring someone who is not up to the job, but you WILL find people who ARE up to the job who do NOT come from top tier schools. There are many people who don't go to college right after high school because of life circumstances or possibly didn't have the money to attend private colleges, but that doesn't mean they are less intelligent or less capable of learning. While I will agree that on average, top tier school students may be smarter, that is just a general rule of thumb and every person should be evaluated based on their own merits.

 

[SomptingGuy]

"Illegal for businesses to give job candidates IQ tests"

Really? What's the rationale behind that?


- Steve

 

[Mr168]

StructuralEIT: I agree with you whole-heartedly in that every person should be evaluated on their own merits. Unfortunately, it's the evaluation period that can cost a company dearly if said individual does not meet expectations. Not only have they lost resources in training that individual (and possibly correcting their mistakes), but they probably lost the opportunity to hire one of those prime candidates from a top notch school.

Do I agree with this method of thinking, no. If I did, I wouldn't be in the position I'm in now, as my school would hardly be considered top notch by any means. But it doesn't take much to understand where these companies are coming from.

 

[Christine74]

SomptingGuy, in 1971 the US Supreme Court ruled that employer's use of cognitive tests was discriminatory against minorities:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=401&invol=424

As I understand the ruling, you are permitted to quiz job candidates, but only if you can demonstrate that the questions asked are pertinant to the specific job requirements.

-Christine

 

[SomptingGuy]

Well, I read a big chunk of that and all I can say is that the history of the USA is scarily scarily recent.

- Steve

 

[carnage1]

Good thing the number of graduates from top tier schools is finite
As for the testing, anything that cannot be proven to be a direct job requirement will get you in trouble.

 

[Twoballcane]

"I agree with this, but not for the reasons you might assume. The purpose of an engineering degree is not to train you to work as an engineer. How many of us perform hand calculations of highly idealized and largely impracticle problems for our jobs?

I still do high level hand calcs. How else would you know what is going on with your design?


Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."

 

[csd72]

Mediocre unis rule!

 

[B16A2]

StructuralEIT, Sure there's always going to be individuals who are self motivated, but how's an employer to differentiate between students who apply themselves and professors who give out easy A's?? After a decade of sampling graduates, my company will not waste any more time and money trying to "give everyone a chance". If that were the case then everyone should just go to community college.

 

[Lion06]

I don't think community college offer ABET accredited programs. As for the gen ed courses, I see nothing wrong with a community college.
I get your overall point, you're just REALLY limiting your talent pool.

 

[HgTX]

Limiting talent pool or playing the odds?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Lion06]

Additionally, 10 years after graduation when the guy has a PE, do you really care where he went to school? I can see your point more for a fresh grad, but I disagree almost 100% for someone with experience. Especially because you can tell if someone knows what they're talking about during an interview.

 

[GregLocock]

In another thread they/we are discussing why standards have fallen. If they have, and courses have got easier and more expensive, I suggested that it is us, the interviewers, who have cused that, by not rewarding those candidates who have completed harder courses with more/better job offers. If industry wants bums on seats then that's what the unis will provide. If industry wants better than that then it has to give a price signal to the market.





Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[B16A2]

I don't mind limiting the talent pool when it eliminates a majority of people who can only doggy paddle.

A 10 yr engineer isn't really any different. You just have to factor in their work experience in addition to where they graduated. A great mentor COULD erase some of the damage done by a mediocre program, but it's case by case and the employer is really taking a chance. PE means nothing. If you're in this profession, you should have your SE2 by year 7...maybe 8.

 

[dougantholz]

Its sorta like looking at an engineer with 5 years of experience. If they worked at a place that has a reputation for less than state of the art work we see them differently then someone who may have worked at a more prestigious firm that pushes designs and isn't afraid to look deep into the fundamentals of engineering to do a good design.

 

[Gymmeh]

I agree with GregLocock's last statement.

It is kinda industries fault, although not all jobs require the best engineers. Where I work now, one of the other engineers was amazed that I could do beam calcs by hand... partly because he had never been asked to do any calcs out of school. Many Companies either are to busy to "use" their engineers, or just use them for drafting or pointless work. Which results in schools saying "90% of or Grades are Engineers." Which continues them doing the same old...

MuEagle05

I have complained about something related to this...
thread731-217096

I have found out that most Engineers at my job are from higher end Uni's, and I assume, with Higher GPA's. And only one of them does anything that I could consider "challenging" engineering work. He and I have been used for all the more complex calculations... the other 4 only do drafting work.

Relating this back to the discussion.
They did get their jobs because they are from higher end Uni's, all are also really good guys. However I made it in, going to a state school, and less than impressive grades, even before I knew I passed the FE.

My best advice is that if your getting A-B's at your current school, start doing "Engineering" related activities, take more challenging classes, spend as much time as possible in the machine shop or a Lab, make Connections with as many engineering friends as possible. Also, unless you get scholarships, coming out of a state school with less debit will be nice.

One of my best mentor always said "the cream rises to the top".

PS I Highly recommend study abroad!

Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day

 

[Lion06]

B16a-

Do you work for Walter P. Moore or something? I work for a pretty prestigious firm in our area. We work with very prestigious architects on a lot projects that end up in magazines and newspapers. I think I only ended up here because some people fro higher profile schools went somewhere for more money, but I have proven myself at least as valuable as my colleagues with graduate degrees from schools like VT, Cornell, and Berkeley.
They actually hired someone else from my program just because of my performance.