Methodology of a sale, ethical? 3

[qu1nn]

Is it common for engineering to get overriden by sales?

Where I work the sales department; Receives the customers specifications, quote on bids, receive customers statement of work, and form a sale based on the statement of work.

Engineering- typically will have to make several waivers as specifications cannot be met. Engineering is not involved during the inital stages of quoting or reviewing the customers specifications. To quote the owner "engineering does not dictate what orders are taken".

I dont think that it is a good business practice as the customer typically expects that we will meet the requirements that were laid out in the statement of work.
By the time waivers are agreed to the customer is already pissed off because we backed them into a corner and most likely delayed shipment.

Just looking to see if this is a common practice, as I have limited experience.

Thanks for your time
Qu1nn

 

[dozer]

Even though your electrical it sounds like a carbon copy of what I've often seen. Often we see specs that don't make sense and we (the engineers) point it out to sales. They say something like "Just do what makes sense." or "We can't tell them their spec is goofed up or they'll get pissed and go elsewhere." or my personal favorite, "We can't take too many exceptions, it will just confuse them."

Unfortunately (or fortunaltely), we, the engineers, are the professionals so it is incumbent on us to do the stand up thing. As I say to sales people sometimes, "Oh, so you'll be stamping these drawings?"

I would like to tell you it's cut and dry, but it isn't. Sometimes the specs are so badly written and the economic pressure to get the job is so great that the engineer's ideal interpretation of what needs to be done doesn't happen.

To answer your question, I don't know if it's common for engineering to get overridden by sales (hopefully not because I would think depending on your case it would be unethical), but my experience is it is common to do battle with sales.

 

[GregLocock]

I've worked on a project where we worked with the customer to come up with a spec. They knew what they wanted, in a hand waving fashion, we helped turn it into a testable spec, which also became our design and validation document.

If I can descend into Newspeak, it actually helped with our "customer focus". If they couldn't justify a requirement, or if we couldn't, then it was an unnecessary constraint and got tossed out of the spec. Similarly with unmeasurable requirements. Incidentally this was/is a research/design/build project and has been very succesful.

So maybe you could do the same with your customers? Sit down with them and explain the why's and wherefores? (Yeah OK, and pigs have wings)
Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[IFRs]

That's why we are engineers - to figure out how to do it right despite what sales has done.

 

[k111er]

In my experience, most sales personnel are not skilled (or even concerned) with what the small details are, or working them out. Engineering and technical personnel, on the other hand, require these details to perform properly. This dichotomy can often cause conflict: it has done so before, and likely will again.

Two things I try to remember:
1. sales would not be made without technical support
2. technical wouldn't be required if sales weren't being made

I agree with Greg - once discussions with customers go beyond pleasantries and the 'dog and pony' show, sales should step back, and allow the details to be managed properly.

Sales makes promises, engineering keeps them.

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Reality 101: Most sales are $$$. When I was in sales (boat diesels) the customer focus was $$/hp. I came into sales from technical service and while welcomed by some, was not well liked by most. I think they (buyers) were uncomfortable because they knew they couldn't BS me and then use it to there advantage. So, as I see it 1) Customers demands more than is possible (knowingly), 2) Sales agrees to it to make the sale, 3) Engineering tries their best to live up to it and everybody laughs and winks when portions are deleted due to the engineer's incompetence 4) Service does their best to support it. But rule #1, the customer is always right. If your sales guy doesnt do it, the next three in line will and your company (and job)will flounder.

Blacksmith

 

[buzzp]

Sales driven companies are, unfortunately, common. Engineers often have little involvement until the deal is sealed. This is a reality at most establishments unless the CEO is an engineer himself.
I will generally ask so many questions that the sales person will give me the customers name to ask them directly. If this does not work, I flood the sales person with memos with questions and ask for written replies to cover my heiny. This is the best way for me to work with unclear specs or unrealistic requirements. Most customers I have talked too accept the unreal requirements as impractical or not economical and often change them after talking to them or sometimes shed light on what they really want. Hope this helps.

 

[k111er]

I have to disagree with your "Rule #1", TheBlacksmith. I have this conflict with my sales staff all the time. The customer is NOT always right. Often, the customer is not certain what they want, beyond a vague, big-picture view, and of course the likelihood of their target changing increases as the time left before deadline decreases (Murphy). As far as sales is concerned, Rule #1 is valid.

But, the techies know that the customer... is simply the customer. They need us to intepret, and then tell them what they want.

 

[MASSEY]

I use approval drawings. Sales send me a quote that they have 'hacked' out with the customer. I make sure the product can be built to meet the perameters in the quote. Then I send an approval drawing to sales and they present it to the customer and the customer signs it.

The approval drawings are my directive. This covers everyone's interests.

Rarely I have to talk to the customer, we let each department do what they are good at and trained for.

Signed approval drawings with pertinent specs. are the final authority.

 

[plasgears]

Then there is the other side of the coin:

I encountered a customer who demanded more performance from an actuator that had been in production for some time. Instead of writing a new spec for a new product, they extended the spec of the old product. "How much margin do you have in this actuator anyway?" they asked.

We had to tweak the motor to put out more performance to meet the new spec (at the same price, of course). I like customers in general; they provide the reason for existence in engineering and sales, but I don't like to be manipulated. The customer gained free engineering for his new product at the old price.

Regarding sales/engineering interaction, the best arrangement is co-location. Our sales person resides within engineering. In a previous job, sales was in the front row with better offices, better health programs, etc. I didn't think it was warranted. We were slaves of the sales force.

One infamous salesman in that office picked my brain on a product line not even connected with the business. He was rewarded with a free consumer product work $400 based on the free engineering extended to his friend from my ideas.

 

[GregLocock]

"We had to tweak the motor to put out more performance to meet the new spec (at the same price, of course). I like customers in general; they provide the reason for existence in engineering and sales, but I don't like to be manipulated. The customer gained free engineering for his new product at the old price"

If the customer had been me, and you were our supplier, I would /expect/ to get slugged for all the engineering costs associated with the changes. On the other hand, I would also be expecting 2% per year cost reduction per year on an established design. Cheers

Greg Locock