Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 11 54

[SFCharlie]

A continuation of our discussion of this failure. Best to read the other threads first to avoid rehashing things already discussed.
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 02
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 03
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 04
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 05
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 06
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 07
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 08
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 09
Miami Beach, Champlain Towers South apartment building collapse, Part 10


SF Charlie
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[tmwaits1]

This is a very disturbing article and makes you wonder if we will ever get definitive answers as to why the building collapsed. Hopefully this legal pressure from Surfside will result in Kilsheimer gaining access to the site and debris, but the truth is he should have been on site throughout the entire debris removal operation. If this had been done properly we would probably already know the cause of the collapse and appropriate action could be taken. As it is, the debris/evidence has probably been disturbed and compromised to the point where getting definitive answers about the collapse may no longer be possible.

 

[gonefishing2]

https://ca.dep.state.fl.us/mapdirect/?focus=uic[/URL]

A couple of things I've discovered:

1. CTEast has two wells.
2. Mirage on the Ocean, 8925 Collins Ave, has one for stormwater drainage with a construction complete date of 01/13/1982.
3. Surf Club, 9011 Collins Ave, has one for swimming pool drainage with a construction complete date of 06/07/1977.
4. CTSouth and CTNorth have none showing on the map.
5. Wells, in the area, are around 80 to 90 ft. deep.]

Very Interesting. I notice on your link that 87 Terrace has no less than 12 wells surrounding their property. One or two are listed in Surfside but most are listed in Miami. Point being 87 Terrace has the ability to shed a lot of water fast compared to anything in Surfside area.

I checked and the articles do say CTS Developer contributed $200K towards Sewer improvements and not storm water drainage. The deepest well I saw around CTS and 87 Terrace was 136 Feet

Edit: Collins Ave has 4 wells between 88th and 87th along the front of CTS. So a lot of water is being dumped deep underground on two sides of CTS.

Edit2: The 3 Collins Ave Wells in front of CTS were drilled in 1994.

 

[Red Corona]

> Hopefully this legal pressure from Surfside will result in Kilsheimer gaining access to the site and debris

There's very little left at the site, giving him access now is pointless. Although one point of interest (re condition of piles discussion above) is that afaik they never tried to break up or get under the basement slab. That implies to me that they aren't concerned about what's underneath and don't think that had anything to do with the collapse.

 

[raymiepo]

All About Money,

for what it's worth, a lot of those wells for 87 Park were for dewatering.

 

[Demented]

@arbitraria
Some fun info in there on the towns storm drainage plans. Pretty much, just pump it into the bay faster than it comes in.

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/do...ect-completion-document.pdf?sfvrsn=26844494_0

https://townofsurfsidefl.gov/docs/d...objectives-and-policies.pdf?sfvrsn=b0d04494_2

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/do...-infrastructure-element.pdf?sfvrsn=f8755194_5

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/do...omp-plan---infrastructure-element-excerpt.pdf

Precision guess work based on information provided by those of questionable knowledge

 

[gonefishing2]

@raymiepo,

Looking at the storm drainage link you provided, the Four (4) 2016 wells along the East Beach Side of 87 Park are De-Watering wells, 1 of the other drainage wells is a 1984 Vintage Well, and the other 7 are 2017 Vintage Drainage Wells.

 

[MarkBoB2]

Just found two more security cameras on the pool deck. Unlike the two cameras found by Kreemerz in Part 2, which appeared to look south directly over the pool area and east to see people approaching the gate to the pool area, these two cameras appear to look south over the pool deck between the pool and the parking area and east to see people approaching the doors to the stairwell and the gym room. Both of these latter cameras should be positioned to see any collapse of the pool deck and provide a time stamp, with the latter camera also being able to see if the collapse started on its own or as a result of an object dropping from the roof onto the patio area outside room 111, under which the objects in the TikTok video were seen. If the tapes from these two cameras are not made available to investigators, and eventually to the public, then the absence of these tapes would need a good explanation.

 

[raymiepo]

All About Money,

you're a better man than I.

fyi:
clicked on the "?" (Help Documents and Contact Information)at the top center panel of the link.
I shot an email to the GIS.Librarian. Asked how far back the data/information dates.
Got a very quick response by a very cordial Training Lead at the Help Desk. Response included that the layers on that map represent all the UIC Wells in Florida so there isn't really a date range set for the map.

so my focus of interest remains:

Did CTS ever have permitted, inspected, and recorded wells as drawn on the plans?
Where/into what did the 18" storm for CTS discharge?
Does CTN have permitted, inspected, and recorded wells?

ps:
pertaining to 87 Park >
did you ever see this link by the historic preservation community provided by the townofsurfsidefl ?

https://www.townofsurfsidefl.gov/do...-preservation-community.pdf?sfvrsn=8c1f1194_4

 

[gonefishing2]

so my focus of interest remains:
Did CTS ever have permitted, inspected, and recorded wells as drawn on the plans?
Where/into what did the 18" storm for CTS discharge?
Does CTN have permitted, inspected, and recorded wells?]][/quote]

raymiepo, I too would like your questions answered. It appears CTS N and S might have gotten a pass on storm water system. You are the first to really research this area. We know the site did not drain well, so it appears the water just sat on top of roof and patio slab? We know storm drainage pipes were replaced in garage a couple of years ago with PVC, and cast iron may have been in real bad shape. Plus I have read the plants had root snakes up to 12 foot long in the drainage pipes.

It could be there is a 3000 gallon tank underground but perhaps the well was never installed? The Collins Street Wells were done by FDOT in 1994, I think. Or perhaps CTS was tied into some sort of Surfside Storm Drainage System in 1981, that was abandoned when FDOT updated Collins Ave? But that does not mesh with the 18" pipe thru the east wall of the tub.

I have actually seen the historical link concerning construction of 87 Park.

 

[SFCharlie]

Found it! Photo of CTS flood water disposal system:

SF Charlie
Eng-Tips.com Forum Policies

 

[Nukeman948]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaZcyq7YsNA

This video has no mention of tar kettles, things falling from the roof or drainage issues. WHAT IS HE HIDING!!

 

[arbitraria]

@Demented, thanks for those links! Definitely a different set of environmental factors than I'm used to. Does FDEP have teeth as far as permitting and enforcement? That may sound like a silly question, but it appears from the outside that FL has been kind of a regulatory wild west until something exceptionally egregious occurs that forces oversight (Andrew, hopefully CTS, etc.). I'm sure plenty of states put on a good show that don't actually do much...then there are states like mine that can be a massive pain to deal with.

(I'm grateful for the environmental protections, but talk about persnickety reviewers... One project I worked on over the course of several years had 3 running sets of drawings at any given moment - one regular project set, two separate DEP permitting sets, all in different permutations of 3 design phases that had been split into sub-phases, which had to be integrated into different sub-phases for the permit sets...I honestly don't know how I kept it all straight. That one broke my brain a little.)

I know a lot has changed over 40 years, but the relative absence of depth on the site plans for this property is just bizarre. Any additional angle just brings more and more questions. I hope the association, at the very least, had better information in the form of their as-builts.

I suppose there could be one bright side to the drainage issues - maybe a lot of that water CTS was accumulating in the garage wasn't saltwater after all! So, hooray for potentially slower corrosion?

 

[Sym P. le]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaZcyq7YsNA

As I stated earlier... He does a fine job of laying it out.

And to carry on, the pool deck collapse, initiated at the car park, was retarded by the stiffening offered by the beams and slab steps as it reached the 11.1 grid line ... for maybe 5 minutes or so.

 

[gonefishing2]

What would you call that 'Column' of Water in your image?



Building Integrity for the Win? Still does not explain first collapse heard near elevators?

 

[Spartan5]

This video has no mention of tar kettles, things falling from the roof or drainage issues. WHAT IS HE HIDING!!

I don’t know how he gets any real work done.

Or maybe it’s that simple. In which case why didn’t the consulting engineer hired to complete a structural analysis pick up on any of this? How do you design repairs for a building if you haven’t identified what is wrong with it in the first place?

 

[CE3527]

Solid analysis by Building Integrity. Would like to learn more about his calculations showing that the pool deck was designed at 100% capacity with dead load, and whether that considered additional loading from the topping layer, sand layer, and pavers, along with planter beds containing water saturated soils. His identification of the two 12"x16" columns at the edge of parking as a weak link, makes complete sense as a likely origin of the failure.

 

[AusG]

Put together, MarkBob2's latest image and high water levels raise the intriguing possibility the failure was triggered by the collision of two submarines in the parking garage. No wonder there is a air of secrecy around the site.

 

[Reverse_Bias]

Got this from a twitter post. The article is behind a paywall so I just have the graphic. It shows a lot of overloaded columns in the section that collapsed. Plenty of the same columns the Miami Herald article marked in red for overcrowding. Although it doesn't show the pool deck I think it's irrelevant cause that was all punching shear failures except for M11.1.

https://twitter.com/XinzhengLu/status/1426129840227295235

Edit: Some users have pointed out this study may have some issues and used an out of date column schedule.

Columns that were this overloaded probably would have showed obvious signs of cracking and buckling years before collapse.

 

[Nukeman948]

I don’t know how he gets any real work done.

He seems to stay focused on the real issues instead of chasing all the rabbits to check out their holes.

Maybe they did, weren't they planning to redo this area as part of the pool deck repairs?

 

[Demented]

@Demented, thanks for those links! Definitely a different set of environmental factors than I'm used to. Does FDEP have teeth as far as permitting and enforcement? That may sound like a silly question, but it appears from the outside that FL has been kind of a regulatory wild west until something exceptionally egregious occurs that forces oversight (Andrew, hopefully CTS, etc.). I'm sure plenty of states put on a good show that don't actually do much...then there are states like mine that can be a massive pain to deal with.

(I'm grateful for the environmental protections, but talk about persnickety reviewers... One project I worked on over the course of several years had 3 running sets of drawings at any given moment - one regular project set, two separate DEP permitting sets, all in different permutations of 3 design phases that had been split into sub-phases, which had to be integrated into different sub-phases for the permit sets...I honestly don't know how I kept it all straight. That one broke my brain a little.)

I know a lot has changed over 40 years, but the relative absence of depth on the site plans for this property is just bizarre. Any additional angle just brings more and more questions. I hope the association, at the very least, had better information in the form of their as-builts.

I suppose there could be one bright side to the drainage issues - maybe a lot of that water CTS was accumulating in the garage wasn't saltwater after all! So, hooray for potentially slower corrosion?

FDEP does have teeth. Based on personal experience however, a small stack of dead presidents is enough to keep the muzzle on. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. There's a lot of good agents on the ground that try to do right, don't get me wrong, the issues are just higher up.

A lot has changed in the 40 years yeah, but a lot of what I see on the ground is still the same. If you think the paperwork is a mess, you should see how we drive on our roads down here.

Maybe they did, weren't they planning to redo this area as part of the pool deck repairs?

Yes they were. Roughly 18,000sqft of upper decking and slab were being looked at for full depth replacement or at the very least, partial depth repair. Roughly 14,000sqft of the decking was replaced/repaired in 1995/1996 and this work was known to contain a lack of rebar, improper work in general, and was never completed.

I still don't think anyone thought the deck would fail as it did, but they wanted to get the ball rolling on that work long before they even started on the roof work.

Solid analysis by Building Integrity. Would like to learn more about his calculations showing that the pool deck was designed at 100% capacity with dead load, and whether that considered additional loading from the topping layer, sand layer, and pavers, along with planter beds containing water saturated soils. His identification of the two 12"x16" columns at the edge of parking as a weak link, makes complete sense as a likely origin of the failure.

14,000sqft of the pool deck was not as originally built. So the loading on it was actually far worse.