MONKEY STUDY 9

[TateJ]

This is not purely engineering related. But I see a huge knowlege base, active in this forum. I'm betting one of you can collaborate this for me...

I recall hearing about a behavior study… with monkeys (or chimps or something). In which a group of monkeys were kept in a room with a banana (or some other reward) at the top of a rope. Then when the first monkey went up the rope for the treat – the other monkeys were hosed down with cold water (or some sort of negative stimuli). Soon they learned that going for the treat was bad & stopped going for it. And they would not let any other monkey go for it either. Then one of the monkeys was replaced by a new monkey. This monkey – having not learned the behavior – went for the treat & was “attacked” by the other monkeys. Soon, this new monkey learned not to go for the treat – but, of course, didn’t know why. Then another original monkey was replaced by a new monkey. The process repeated, this time with the first new monkey also “attacking” to keep the newest one off the rope. After the newest one learned not to climb for the treat, another new monkey replaced another original monkey. Eventually, all the original monkeys were replaced by new monkeys, who had never been hosed down for climbing for the treat, but they would still never climb for it. And they would “teach” any new monkey not to climb for the treat.

So you have an interesting result… A bunch of monkeys, who say (simplified):
WE DON’T DO IT THAT WAY. WE’VE NEVER DONE IT THAT WAY.
AND IF YOU TRY TO DO IT THAT WAY, WE WILL KICK YOUR BUTT.

Anybody else ever hear of this?

My recollection (I’m sure) is not exact, but you should get the gist of the study. I’ve been trying to find a reference for it on the web, with no luck.

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FAQ376​

 

[prohammy]

jmw,

Interesting look at the thread from a slightly more pragmatic point of view (a star for you)



Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK

 

[Ussuri]

jmw, you hit nail on the head. It is all about taking risks. Which is something we do every day of our lives.

I'm not saying I either agree or disagree with the company philosophy of 'it aint broke dont fix it' approach, but I understand it. But there are acceptable risks (commercial, safety) and unacceptable risks. It all comes back to the 'risk assessment' which is everywhere these days.

The monkeys obviously did a risk assessment and identified it was not worth the reward available.

A separate idea is evolution of design, as opposed to redevelopment. I would put your scissors in that category. The basic design has not changed, the materials used to make it have. IMHO.

 

[josephv]

It's not nice to compare people (e.g. co-workers) to monkeys....


... it's very offensive to the poor monkeys.

cheers,

 

[jmw]

Ah, "it ain't broke, so don't fix it." We can add that to our list of management speak. What it really means is that according to one aircraft manufacturer, 80% of failures were due to maintenance, not good or bad maintenance, just maintenance. (I can't think of the actual % but it was staggeringly high).
Now that isn't an excuse to stop maintenance, it is a reason to move away from routine maintenance of the "do it whether it needs doing or not" approach. I would guess, just guess, mind, that stopping maintenance on aircraft would probably have some undesirable results.
But for management this is a great excuse and, if you liike, a clue to their thinking.

Here is an example:
I wanted to make some changes to a product. I wanted to rationalise it and update it. It was an exceptionally good product with excellent sales.
What it would do is enable the company to exploit a lower cost (sales price) solution which should expand the range of applications.
Management were against this because of "product cross capture" that is, that all that would happen would be that a lower priced product would capture sales from a higher priced product that was doing very nicely.
In other words, the "if it ain't broke...." mentality. Of course, there is some logic to this and it is the sort of logic that appeals to management (they like any decision where they can say "no" and not invest money).
However, the fallacy is that they are not a monopoly supplier. Their competitors are busy doing everything they can to capture the share held by this product and, probably would succeed easily if their managers were not as bad as ours were.
Success is having the least worst set of managers.



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[KENAT]

jmw, it's funny. I've never heard management say 'if it aint broke don't fix it'.

That was always us engineers when they had us off on some pointless wild goose chase.

Maybe we should swap employers;-)

 

[Bester2]

Great post. My favorite bunch of monkeys by far is the US auto industry. Dr. Deming travels to Japan after WW II and introduces the concept of lean manufacturing to the Japanese manufactures after being frustrated with not being able to have his ideas adapted here in the states. It takes over 30 years for the US auto industry to even start thinking about lean manufacturing and another 10 to start any type of implementation. Fast-forward to today all of the major US auto manufactures are playing catch-up to the now dominant Japanese auto manufactures. I guess Dr. Deming was a monkey that got so frustrated he decided to get away from the other monkeys and leave the cage. The banana was to appealing to him.

PS: I am sure there are much worse industries today other than the US auto industy, it is just so easy to pick on the big three.

Thanks TateJ you have made my day.

 

[Comcokid]

Another "monkey-type behavior" I have observed companies following is described in the following paragraph.

Some companies severely punish mistakes, but have little idea what their employees are really doing. Good employees are always trying to do something, fix problems, and move the company forward. However, when you are doing a lot more, your risk of eventually making a minor or major mistake increases. As a result, such employees eventually receive negative feedback or are fired! However, employees who do little to nothing run much less risk of making mistakes. Companies who follow such excessive method of addressing mistakes eventually fill their employee ranks with do-nothings. Additionally, when a do-something employee arrives, he is quickly identified as he stands out of the crowd!

I worked for such a company at one time - forced transfer just before a division was sold-off. They were trying to get a top employee to move them forward. It took me only a few weeks to realize what I have transfered into. I quickly left! I stood-out too much!

 

[KENAT]

Hmm,

I'm starting to think that I'm the monkey that just won't learn not to go for the bananas.

thread731-179040

 

[HgTX]

Comcokid--have you seen the Kurosawa movie Ikiru?

Hg


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[0707]

Pick a fly rod, in the end of the fly rod, hang a banana, jump to the back of the monkey with your device and you will get a rapid way of being transported.

 

[KENAT]

Normally known as carrot and stick for donkeys.

However in this instance it would be banana & rod for monkeys.

 

[Comcokid]

HgTX - No, Haven't seen it. I've only seen Yojimbo

Kurosawa movie Ikiruu - Kanji Watanabe is a longtime bureaucrat in a city office who, along with the rest of the office, spends his entire working life doing nothing...

Will have to put it on the list of movies to see.

 

[randi]

The problem here is that the monkeys don't think the same way like human beings do. If a monkey need a banana so desperately you do not know what he will do. He can sense your strategy even before you try to implement it. So watch out - here he comes, sometimes with his entire gang.

To find the reality you will have to visit some temples in India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia or Japan. They are not afraid of any human beings or machines or some dinky little toys - they can steal there food even from the gods.

They do not like this monkey business that the humans are worrying about. Their management skills and maneuverability surpasses the traditional human thought process.