Negotiating Month-long Leave at new job 5

[aetherTap]

Hypothetical:

-Currently Employed at a job you don't enjoy.
-Just got offered a job at a new employer that (surprise surprise) seems like a better fit.
-Employees at this new job go through a training period during their first year.

-You have made a prior commitment (nothing legally binding, though) to travel Europe for a month in September. This is possibly a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity and money is not an issue.

Do you bring this up immediately after the offer and hope that they see past it?

Do you work there for, let's say, 4 months to get a feel for the job and hopefully develop a positive relationship with superiors and then talk about month of leave without pay once you've established your abilities?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Sorry... you'd need a GS11-3, a GS10-6, or a GS9-10 for the D.C. area (and surrounding). A GS7-10 is just shy of $55k...

I was looking at the base table, not the local table.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

Now that the actual real relevant facts are disclosed, this entire thread was just a complete waste.

The answer is so obvious that if you needed to ask there is no hope. For the sake of the office, I sincerely hope you blow it. Good grief.

Regards
Pat
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[berkshire]

bpmirsch
You now have a real choice. Do you want the job or not?
If you really want the job forget the European trip !

B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Maybe I should push my own application a little bit harder now, knowing they need to fill a spot ;-) I don't think they'd be willing to match/beat my salary, though... a major issue with the gov. I'd love to work for the USPTO, but they just don't pay enough until you start to hit the mid 14's... and they never start you that high.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[aetherTap]

Thank you to those that had a respectful response!

To the others; I'm sorry this thread made you so angry. Ask yourself why you would wish someone else to fail simply because they have multiple opportunities and a tough decision? I know that if I "blow" this PTO opportunity, it is not the end of the world for me, only a minor setback. Other things can come before work sometimes... Plus I am confident in myself and my abilities, so if I never get to work at PTO I know I will not be unemployed for the rest of my life.

I appreciate all the advice given to me (and potentially others) in this thread EVEN THOUGH it certainly was perceived as geared towards civilian careers and not federal.

As far as the pay, I'm only going off of what the offer states in the email.

 

[ztengguy]

@ bpmirsch, you will find on here, some are not happy unless others are not happy. I think its the anal retentiveness of engineers, sometimes someones screws are looser than others.

Good luck, just table the trip to europe, not much going on there anyway, most of whats going on has been around for a while and wont be going anywhere!

Also, Im sure your offer is correct, perhaps the tables have changed on pay rates, and not all know it.

 

[IRstuff]

It's not about the OP's happiness or unhappiness; it's about his moral and ethical compass.

Basically, the OP has wasted someone else's time to interview him, champion him, and make him an offer that probably will be turned down. No apologies, no remorse, and a perceived cavalier attitude to the whole situation...

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[looslib]

While the OP didn't give us all the facts, did he know about the no miss training when he first posted? If he did, then yes, he wasted a some time for those that answered. If the miss no training only came out in the offer email, then the OP himself was presented with new facts to the situation and he has to consider how that plays into his short and long range goals. If working for the PTO is a lifetime dream job, you take the job and reschedule the vacation until next year, after the training. If the PTO job is just one to try for, then only the OP can decide which way he wants to go.


"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."

Ben Loosli

 

[aetherTap]

@IRStuff

Ah! Now we're talking... Back to the ethical questions brought about by my original post.

When presented with (assumed to be) two options -- take the job or never get the job for the rest of my life -- what have I done that is really considered unethical to the point where you are demanding me to be remorseful?

Of course I want the job and I think I will/would be damn good at it; however, there is no ethical rule stating that if you interview and get accepted for something that you have to agree to it. That's why they extend offers to candidates and ask if you choose to accept it or not.

I will be apologetic to the interviewer if I do not take the job, that's for sure. I asked for his email and phone number at the conclusion of the interview so I could keep in touch with him.

Is the PTO ethically required to apologize to the candidates for giving them a week's notice to move across country if need-be (or moving the start date from March12 to May7)? I kind of expect the answer from you would be "no". Do you have a good reason for that?

 

[aetherTap]

@looslib

Actually I'm glad you brought that up.

I originally applied for the job back in October of 2011. Got nixed from that round ("Candidate does not meet minimum requirements"). At this point I knew only peripheral opinions about PTO and the job in general.

Then I applied again in November. Got nixed but got further ("Candidate meets requirements but not recommended"). At this point I still did not know the specifics of training, I only knew that the flexible schedule happens after some probationary period.

Finally applied in January. Hey, what do you know? Got recommended for an interview! Ecstatic. However, now I have another lifetime opportunity and through studying for the interview process, I find that the training period is stringent on attendance. But the starting date was for March, so possibly by that time I'd be far enough along? Responses to that question from PTO people sounded negative. The offer process has been delayed for whatever reason and now the start date is May 7th.

We will just have to see what they say. I will be asking Monday for a deferred start date. I will let you guys know what happens after that. This gives you guys a head start on crafting your deriding and condescending comments! Good luck

 

[casseopeia]

"Candidate no longer meets availability requirements"

"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[patprimmer]

OP

In my opinion, ethics cannot be taught. You either have them or you don't.

Presuming a right to mislead and waste the time of others and having no remorse for doing so kinda suggests you will never actually understand that. Words like egocentric, immature and narcissistic spring to mind.

If you honestly did not know:-

1) There where 2000 other applicants for this one job.
2) That the training course was fixed in time and compulsory.

Then my comments are unwarranted.

If you did know, I would be very pleased that someone or anyone of that character was not in a position where a high level of ethics and character is an essential requirement to do the job.

Regards
Pat
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[berkshire]

It would be ironic if one of the contributors to this forum also worked at the USPTO
B.E.

The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor

 

[patprimmer]

BE

It might actually create in me a belief in a higher being who has a sense of natural justice, karma and humour.

Also it is actually quite possible that such is the case. This forum is open for anyone to read and not necessarily comment. Talk about a possible shot directly to the foot.

Regards
Pat
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[MacGyverS2000]

Also, Im sure your offer is correct, perhaps the tables have changed on pay rates, and not all know it.

Egg on my face... I forgot the USPTO has their own rates. I was looking at the 2012 table for the D.C./MS/VA areas.

The pay sounds correct, then... a Grade 10, Step 7 is $67,589.

http://usptocareers.gov/Pages/Misc/SalaryRates.aspx

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

So Dan. Are you now applying and can you start exactly when required.

Regards
Pat
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[MacGyverS2000]

Considering the change in rates, if my current potential doesn't work out... ;-)

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[aetherTap]

Update:

Called HR and told them that I would be very interested in the job, however I have something that came up which would have me missing training for 4 weeks in September (obviously not doable); I also told them that the reason would be more of personal nature in that I have an opportunity that I consider to be once-in-a-lifetime and that I am not necessarily optimistic or naive enough to think that PTO could accommodate me that far in the future.

She said that she does know that there is no set date for classes that far in advance, however their goal is to hire 1500 examiners per year and that they are fairly steadily hiring GS7's and GS9's (assuming no hiring freeze from the gov't, could be a concern).

She said she will get back to me after she asks about possibly keeping my name on a hiring list.

From an ethics standpoint, she was very nice and did not indicate any frustration or dissatisfaction towards me; I still do not feel like there was anything wrong with this interaction or feel as though I wasted anyone's time. If they come back and say they can't do anything for me, life goes on and I will simply apply again once I have a free schedule and hope for the best!

 

[tickle]

That moral and ethical compass needs recalibrating. The person you spoke to does not care whether you get the job or not, there are 1,999 other applicants.

As my grandma used to say, you catch more wasps with honey than you do vinegar.

 

[berkshire]

bpmirsch (Mechanical)
So how do you feel now, knowing that you have just blown that job opportunity.
B.E.


The good engineer does not need to memorize every formula; he just needs to know where he can find them when he needs them. Old professor