New (to me) "metric" unit

[zdas04]

There was a homework question this morning in Piping (thread378-388505) that is pretty sure to vanish by Monday. The guy actually photocopied his text book. Here is a screen shot:

In the first line the text's author says "... enters the bearing at 250 N/hr". Does anyone have any idea what an "N/hr" might be?

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[davidbeach]

But erg(s) and dyne(s) are regular cross-word puzzle staples. You'd think they were in common use from the frequency they show up.

 

[TheTick]

In college, if a thermo or fluid problem was in English units, I translated to metric, solved, then translated answer back to English. Far less error-prone than dealing with slugs/lbf/lbm/geepound.

I recently had to deal with a client's calcs that carried errors due to slug/lbm issues. Set everything back a couple weeks.

 

[KENAT]

I miss the last couple of years of high school and most of uni where most problems were in base metric units with liberal use of exponents.

Sure made things simpler, once you'd got used to exponents.

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[JohnRBaker]

Whenever I'm discussing the pros and cons of the US moving fully onto the Metric system (which I favor BTW), the subject of 'slugs' will inevitably enter the conversation at one point or another ;-)

Note that I worked 14 years for the American division of a British company back in the 60's and 70's. This proved interesting as British standards were officially in place, but we were still working in the US building equipment for mostly a domestic market and having to deal with local suppliers and contractors. Of course, since the British were still using 'Imperial' units at the time (for some reason we were never allowed to say 'English' units), this wasn't a real problem. But it did present some interesting situations. Such as the fact that they were still using the so-called 'Imperial' standard drawing standards where paper sizes were based on a factor of 11 x 15 inches. This worked out to the following sizes:

[tt]D (Detail) = 11 x 15
LD (Large Detail) = 15 x 22
IMP (Imperial) = 22 x 30
DE (Double Elephant) = 30 x 44
ANT (Antiquarian) = 30 x (as long as needed)[/tt]

When we brought CAD into the company in 1977 and started to set-up templates so that we could plot our drawings (this was in the days of pen plotting and we used our pre-printed drawing sheets as stock) we noticed that all of the title blocks were different proportions. So we went to our paper supplier to propose a common master template and it was then that they informed us of how much money we had been wasting all these years because we were using non-standard sizes as they had to custom cut our paper from larger stock. So they suggested that we go to standard ANSI sized drawing sheets, but this was based on 8 1/2 x 11, which when extrapolated out to what would then be a 'D' sized drawing, it was only 22 x 34, pretty small compared to our old 'DE' size. Note that we couldn't go to 'E' size paper as that's 34 x 44 and all of our file drawers were designed to take 30 x 44 size sheets (note that ANT's were stored rolled-up in tubes). So we compromised and used Architectural size paper instead which was based on 9 x 12 so at least our new 'D' size would be 24 x 36 (ANT's remained unchanged).

Anyway, I was still working there when the United Kingdom started to transition to the Metric or SI system. Note that they insisted on referring to it as 'decimalization' and of course they also had to convert their monetary system as well, which seemed to occupy the minds of most of the Brits that I knew more then anything else. Of course since the US already had a decimal-based monetary system (if you leave out 'quarters' which owe their existence to before fractional coinage when Spanish Doubloons were sort of the de facto standard in the world and since they were sterling silver it was relatively easy to cut them into smaller denominations which is where the term 'Pieces of Eight' came from cutting Doubloons, usually in half or in quarters, hence where we also got the term '2-bits' meaning 25 cents). Anyway, since we didn't have any monetary issues we just stat back and watched our co-workers in the UK hassle with this. They had a company newspaper which was published worldwide and so were able to keep up with progress of all this. Of course they eventually got around to converting to the Metric system itself in the Drawing office, but we were allowed to continue on our marry way since we were still a US-based operation doing mostly a domestic business.

Of course, I can go back even further to when I was in engineering school and as our campus was bisected by a US highway that just so happened separated the science buildings (chemistry, physics, etc) on one side of the highway while the engineering buildings were on the other. Since most of the science classes were using metric units and engineering was still locked in to Imperial units, the joke on campus was that the highway not only divided the campus, it was also the demarcation between a modern versus an antiquated view of how the world worked, at least unit-wise. As the university has grown and the make-up of the student body is now including more and more foreign students, I understand that the use of the metric system in engineering is becoming the general norm. Besides, being in Michigan, many of their graduates are going to work for either one of the major automotive OEM's or for many of their suppliers, so teaching in the metric units only makes sense (not sure what the norm is for civil engineers and forestry majors though).

Anyway, sorry for the rant, but the US officially moving to the metric system is long overdue.

And here's a bit of trivia for you. The United States never actually adopted the Imperial system as the basis for our weights and measures. Back when these sorts of issues were first being debated by the newly formed United States Congress, when the subject did come up it was Thomas Jefferson who proposed that we adopt the Metric system, which was just starting to gain traction in France, but Alexander Hamilton objected on the grounds that the British still ruled the seas and therefore had a big influence on global commerce and how business was conducted and he felt that adopting the new Metric system would be an affront to them and so Congress did what it does best, nothing. It just never got around to making anything official, however shortly after the Civil War, the US recognized the Metric system as being a legal and valid system acceptable in commerce and trade, and while this did not constitute it being officially adopted by the US, it did make it legal for anyone in America to use it, if they wished to do so.

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[KENAT]

"for some reason we were never allowed to say 'English' units" that would be so you don't upset all the folks in the UK & commonwealth that aren't English.

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[zdas04]

When I'm teaching classes in former members of the British Commonwealth I have to be really careful what I call the units we use in the U.S. "Imperial" seems to raise hackles in a lot of places (sidetracked a class for 20 minutes in Johannesburg once). "U.S." seems to imply that we invented slugs and furlongs to some people (that was 15 minutes in London). I settled on "fps" and while I usually have to say what that is I don't have to hear much outrage.

I love it when I ask directions in London, Brisbane, or Hong Kong and the answer is "go about 1/4 mile up that way and turn ...".

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[KENAT]

You're right, mention of 'Imperial' will also offend some Zdas, I thought "US Customary Units" was the currently preferred term but I may be incorrect.

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[zdas04]

"U.S. Customary Units" was the exact term I used in London. A lady from Namibia took very minor umbrage to it (ladies from Namibia seem to be very adverse to confrontation) , and a guy from Germany (German men don't seem adverse to confrontation) jumped in explained that we didn't invent that unit system and calling it U.S. was just wrong. I'll stick with "fps".

The trainers at J.M. Campbell have the same experience and their company policy is "fps", I've talked about it to several of their senior instructors and they all have the same experience that I had.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[SomptingGuy]

If you want stupid units in use in UK, our car odometers are all still in miles and our fuel pumps are in litres. So the unofficial mixed miles/litre fuel economy unit is something that you find yourself computing in your head when filling up. Ten is a good average for my car.

Steve

 

[zdas04]

The road signs in the U.K. are hilarious. "Oxford 17 miles" "Next exit 200 m". One speed limit sign will be "60 mph" the next will be "100 kph". I giggle a lot when Brits tell me that any units except SI are stupid (and then they'll tell me they weigh 10 stone).

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JohnRBaker]

And I understand that it's still the norm in the UK that when you go to the grocery store, anything sold pre-packaged such as a can of soup or a bottle of soda is priced and labeled in metric units. However, anything sold fresh and in bulk, like potatoes or carrots, are still priced by the the ounce or pound. And while it's been sometime since I've had to actually drive in England, I do remember the distance signs along the motorway still being in miles.

John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[KENAT]

They have kph signs in the UK now? I seem to recal they had some signs in 'dual language' near the ferry terminals but it's been a while.

As to US customary units, wow Zdas, guess there really is no pleasing all the people all the time.

JohnRBaker, pretty sure that has changed in the last 10 years - I recal news articles about legal action against store owners for sill pricing bulk items by the pound etc.

To some extent, the 'imperial' V 'metric' has been caught up in the bigger "we're not sure we really want to be in 'europe'" issue.

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[SomptingGuy]

No km/h speed signs in UK. Our driving laws are all still written using Imperial units and all vehicles must have mph speedometers fitted. I've not seen any distance-to-junction signs in metres anywhere - I think yards are implied if not stated.

Weights and measures for items bought by "weight" or volume must be metric, although most numbers used are astonishingly close to round numbers in Imperial unts. Many foods can be bought in handy 454g packets, for example and milk comes in 568ml bottles. Loose goods in markets are defiantly sold "by the pound", prosecutions are rare for individual market stall holders.

I think forcing beer to be sold in metric sizes would be the end of our EU membership. We allegedly have an in/out EU referendum during the lifetime of this new government. Oddly, none of the arguments have mentioned Imperial vs "European" measurements yet.

Steve

 

[hokie66]

Beer? Most of the beer we import to Australia from Europe seems to be in 330 ml bottles. And we don't appreciate it, because our standard size is 375 ml. We still call them all "stubbies".

 

[IRstuff]

Wasn't there some sort of row about pints and foam, etc. a while back?

TTFN
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[Latexman]

I don't remember that bit about foam. Since trying a new Irish Pub in town, I have grown partial to a "Snakebite". It would be very discouraging to get one with too much foam! Less bite to it, you know.

Good luck,
Latexman

Technically, the glass is always full - 1/2 air and 1/2 water.

 

[Pud]

Draught beer in England (not sure about our Northern neighbours) can only be sold in gills, half pints and pints, and have do be dispensed into calibrated glasses being either a measure to the brim or a line if oversized (e.g. a 24fl.oz. beer glass has a line at 20fl.oz.) Spirits and wine are sold in ml. Work that out!

We have a Trading Standards Gov Dept which check such things.

I remember my first pint of beer I bought in a pub was 1s/8d (for I am an oldie...)

H



www.tynevalleyplastics.co.uk

It's ok to soar like an eagle, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

 

[IRstuff]

btw, what does 586mL translate into? I'm getting something like 2.4 pints, which doesn't ring any bells for me.

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[KENAT]

IRstuff - British pints not the diminutive American unit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pint_glass

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[zdas04]

Uconeer says that 586 mL is 1.28 U.S. pints, 1.03 U.K. pints, 19.8 U.S. fluid oz, etc.

SomptingGuy,
I was sure I had a photograph of a miles/m sign, but couldn't find it with a quick search. I was pretty sure it was on the road from Heathrow to Reading, but I couldn't find it in those pictures. I did find a picture of a temporary road construction sign that said "Detour 200 m", but that doesn't really count.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist