NFPA Table C105.1 or IFC 508.5.1 hydrant spacing

[conklin8]

I am looking for an alternative or exception for deviation from IFC 2006 as used in South Carolina.

Problem: Furthest portion of newly constructed building is outside code specified distance of 500'. Hydrant & 6" main need to be extended approx. 150' to FD designated location. Next nearest hydrant is 1000' away, a spacing of 1320'. Site is supplied by a 3/4" feeder from a 2.25" main extention. Sprinklers are not required.

Due to existing conditions, i.e. main is on(under) a SCDOT maintained hi-traffic thoroughfare, interuption of service, etc., cost is prohibitive. Initial cost analysis and time frame for procedural logistics are insurmountable for property owner. City refuses to issue CO and will not allow usage until FD mandated hydrant is installed.

FD does not rely on NFPA tables or ISO standard practices, solely on IFC 2006 and their interpretation thereof, or so they say. Initial arguements have been presented based on NFPA LDH allowances and distance based on ISO "location(s) most likely be used by apparatus" instead of furthest point from building, which is 450' from hydrant. FD says no way, 500' is 500'. To cloud matters further, FD has requested a min. flow rate of 1500 GPM, flow rate at existing hydrant is 1180. FD says that will work, but it does not meet the specified requirements. FD can fudge on flow rate but not distance? Comments?

Before I do any further design or spec, I am looking for a possible loophole or quantifiable alt. to keep project IFC compliant without extending main and have a presentable arguement to the FD.

Site study shows neighboring properties have buildings that are also beyond the 500' min. distance. In fact this site has an existing bdlg. the same distance from the hydrant, but it is "grandfathered in". If a new hydrant is installed at the owner's expense, it will be turned over to the water company to benefit the surrounding properties.

One suggestion was an ISO Alternative Water Supply, a 30,000 tank on site with FDC connections. The FD has not yet commented.

Although not a technical question, possibly a situation one of you have come across. Any help is appreciated.

 

[cdafd]

New building I take it??

how big is the building?

what is the building used for??

Cheaper to sprinkle it???

split the difference with the city, since it will help them also??

board of appeals???

 

[conklin8]

Yes. New Building 3600 sq ft.

Specified as storage/warehouse, but considered flex space.

FD is mandating any materials be removed as no CO is no longer eminent. We have requested a TCO. No word yet.


Sprinklers are about $40K, but again insufficient water supply...so a main would still have to be run.

Hashing thru ideas with the water co., City wants any new infrastructure to be the responsibiliy of property owner or developer. It would be great to just add a hydrant even at owner's expense.

Planning/Zoning w/ Fire should be required by code to reveiw plans before issueing building permits. After 20+ inspections... by the way...No CO due to fire code requirements. We have a feeling the City knew our area was hydrant deficient.

Thanks. Any help is appreciated.

 

[cdafd]

and you only have to extend the main 150 feet???

but it is accross a major street???


and building is outsdie the 500 feet??? how do they measure straight line to furthest point, as the hose lays to furthest point??? other???


And I guess no other way to get water to the site???

can the owner put SOME money up to the city, and when future develpoment comes, add that to more money and get a good main system??????????

 

[conklin8]

150'PLUS. FD has still not specified exact location as code & CPW mandate.

Not accross State road.....running lenghtwise, so pavement and state DOT permits are required.

This is disputable to minor affect. FD is measuring hose as truck would drive down road and park, then unobtructed walk to furthest point. Approx. 650. The truck would most likely park at approx. 450 from hydrant due to sit layout. Not unlike an accepted ISO standard.

No other water source. CPW is not a city entity and is "fee" funded but city utilizes for fire supression.

City doesn't want money, just a hydrant to upgrade area by way of enforcing code. CPW may consider upgrade, but will most likely hold property owner responsible for cost.

 

[cdafd]

sounds like board of appeals.

looks like this should have been brought up long time ago

I think compromise put up some money for future expansion of the water system

I guess one other question, if you have not looked at it, is the time the fire department will take to repsond from the station to the site???

 

[conklin8]

I agree. A formal request is going to be made to City council to anact an ordinance requiring P & Z to work with the FD to review plans BEFORE a project is approved or permitted.

Since building and fire codes are state mandated, B of A is probably not the best route now. Building has agreed to issue a Certificate of Completion and leaving Occupancy up to the FD.

To answer your question. FD is around the block, 1/3 mi. Insurance Co. asked the same question. It is also slated for replacement to new & improved.

Commonsense would dictate that a new building is no more unsafe than an existing building the same distance from hydrant. Probably safer due to updated IBC. Unfortunately, current fire code dictates a specified distance with no language for variation. State Fire marshal wants local FD to stick to code. It really comes down to $$$.

Prevention of life & loss are paramount, but gov should provide minimum basic services.

 

[cdafd]

I was just wondering if the building would burn down before the fd gets there, and appears no if they are in the station

""Commonsense would dictate that a new building is no more unsafe than an existing building the same distance from hydrant""

kind of disagree at what point do you stop adding buildings?? with out adding hydrants


I still think the city should look into funding extesnion of the main, with this project kicking in a portion, but not all.


so does the fd roll with a water tanker, if there is a fire at the other existing buildings??

sorry I am not in a state mandated code state.

what is the estimated cost to say extend the main 150 feet???

 

[conklin8]

FD can address the fire.
It is a matter of code specification.

Commonsense statement based on position & distance of existing buildings on surrounding properties. A "grandfathered" building at 625' is OK for occupancy but adjacent property structure(new) at 625' is unoccupiable(as a matter of safety), is the jist. New construction is between hydrant and other existing structures/properties.

Area simply needs more hydrants.

Thank God there have been no fires of record here. Light Industrial area, small storage and work spaces mostly. Not sure about tankers. From what I understand. A pumper ties to the hydrant & rolls down the middle of the street dropping hose to the best location to park. Most structures are located back from the street with parking areas in front with gates/fences. Street distance from hydrant to all properties access(s)is within 500' Similar to ISO language. Most lots do not exceed 200' in depth.

I cannot find out how much hose first responders carry or of what diameter. I have been told by FD it is not relevant. Anything I know about NFPA or ISO standards is out the window.

Initial estimates are pending details, but we are hearing from contractors $50K(if CPW waives some fees) to over $100K, I think these are low. CPW or FD may want to extend further. A big hit for properties with values below $250K.

City is tight fisted on infrastructure but not on pet projects. $18 mil on upgrades to new Civic center and $30 mil on new City Hall...w/ flat screen TV's in common areas. Must be nice.

Far beyond engineering, but you are keeping me thinking. Thanks.

 

[cdafd]

one more thought

I was just wondering about how far the fd was away, say 10 minutes, building would more then likely burn up


but anyway


if the existing fire hydrant is say 150 feet away

so you lay 150 feet of line you still have 350 feet to play with as you drive, and our 200 + 150 as you strech the hose.

so how far out of whack is from the 500 feet how ever you measure????



also, I do not like it, but could they but a dry wall hydrant on the back of the building, and fdc on the front, you pump inot the front, hook up the hose on the back or pumper, and get water on the back side, and give you more reach???????

 

[stookeyfpe]

Do I understand the water supply is fed from a 0.75 inch branch main connected to a 2.75 inch supply main and your asking for a variance? Tell me I misread the original message.