Nitrogen for Ice Plugs 3

[inspectortx2]

I inspect several data centers in the dfw area that use nitrogen instead or air to prevent mic in the pipes every other year they get a mic treatment then back to nitrogen. do you know how many bottles they go through. Your generators would be a good idea but the would have to be listed for fire protection. And it would work great in cold storage buildings as an inspector removing ice plugs sucks try and push it.

 

[nitrosup]

Dear Inspectorx2: Thanks for the repsonse. We have been using nitrogen generators in fire protection successfully for some time. When you say listed for use for fire protection, who's listing would you be referring to? I assume UL? The generators themselves do not carry a UL Approval but they individual companoets are UL Listed very much the way air compressors were handled fro many years in fire protection.
Any thoughts?

 

[stevenal]

Hold on here, did April come early. While water certainly can come from the oxidation of hydrogen, I've never heard of such a process occurring inside piping that survived the event. Condensation usually refers to existing water in vapor form changing to the liquid form. I'm unsure how changing the remaining gas mix from 78%N2 to 100% N2 would alter this process.

 

[nitrosup]

I believe the concept is that if you can eliminate oxygen from the piping system, you can prevent condensation from forming and dramatically reducing the chances of an ice plug forming in cold storage applications.
In another application in fire protection, by eliminating the oxygen in the piping and running at least 95% nitorgen, you can eliminate corrosion from developing on metallic pipe.

 

[stevenal]

What concept? How does eliminating oxygen prevent condensation? Surely to eliminate condensation the concern is to eliminate the moisture. Alternatively, how (and why) would the dew point change with the remaining gas mix given equal concentrations of moisture? I'm afraid this sounds a lot like one of the wild donkey claims of N2 magic promoted by some in the tire trade.

And if, like TravisMack, you are supporting the claim that condensation forms via oxidation, please explain where the free hydrogen comes from. The half a part per million H2 found in air?

 

[ChrisConley]

Wouldn't be the removal of oxygen, but the purging of the line with dry N2 that would remove the moisture.

Same could be accomplished using very dry air I imagine, but N2 is likely cheaper to get than -80 dew point air.

 

[nitrosup]

The nitrogen generator produces up to 99% purity of nitrogen, N2, from a compressed air source and supplies the nitrogen into the dry fire protection sprinkler system; additionally the generator is equiped with filter kits and dryers to dry the air before it enters into the system.
The nitrogen generator system also comes with an automatic purge device installed at the end of the system that will purge the nitrogen out of the system at a rate of less than 1pd per 24 hours. The generator is designed to pump to a higher inlet pressure than the static pressure in the system. Due to the low dew point of nitorgen, -40F, it will absorb any residual moisture in the system and through the purging/cycling action, will remove the moisture from the system.
While we know this system performs remarkably well in preventing corrosion on the internal metallic piping, we are now considering the benefits of preventing the build up of ice plugs in cold storage applications.
As you review my prior postings you may see that I am asking for some input as to your thoughts on this system being beneficial to the prevention of ice plugs.
Farthest thing from my intention is to start or suggest any "wild donkey" claims.(I like that expression and will use it in the future with the author's permission.)

 

[inspectortx2]

All i was saying is even air compressors are listed for fire protection these days but im sure you could get a listing or get an ahj to approve the installation of it you have a hell of a selling point. i know a couple huge data centers that would love to here they have your product out there. and in cold storage building i bet it works alot better then a dry pack compressor.

 

[inspectortx2]

Stevenal- the corosion in the pipes is mic a micro biological organism a bug that eats through the pipe with no oxygen and no moisture the bug cant live there for no pinholes in your pipe over millions of dollers worth of computers.

 

[stevenal]

Permission granted.

I agree that removing O2 will prevent corrosion. I was addressing the condensation bit. Dry air will also absorb moisture. Seems to me you could save a lot of cost by doing all of the above while skipping the nitrogen generating part.

I have no doubt that you could shrink an existing plug by passing a dry gas over it long enough. Water does not need to be liquid to evaporate.

 

[nitrosup]

Thanks for the replies.
What causes an ice plug to form at the warm to cold interface of a mechanical system?
Is it moisture or oxygen that causes the condensation to form, or is it both?
Is a dry air pack that dries the air as good as a system that dries the air but also filters out the oxygen molecules from the air?