Do you think it is acceptable to send engineers (salary, exempt) to do field service work? There is absolutely no engineering/business work to be done at this site. We are short on field service staff at the moment, and so they immediately turned to the engineering staff to complete this installation. This is long hours away from home doing work that was not in the job description, that is dirty, dangerous, and office engineers are not qualified to complete. There will be no monetary reimbursement (besides applicable mileage/meals). Is this appropriate? Do you find yourselves in this situation? Is it normal? Thanks!
Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet
Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals
Office Engineers Doing Field Work 18
- Thread starter jut07
- Start date
Sompting, me too. The amount of times I ask our field service guys when they call or email in a panic "have you set it up according to section X of the Installation Guide/Troubleshooting guide" and find out they haven't, or don't even know what either document is.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
SomptingGuy
Automotive
I've even pandered to writing "fundamentals" sections in our manuals. Very scary.
- What does linearity mean.
- What is superposition.
- What is orthogonality.
- How to work with complex spectra.
- How to work with decibels.
The sort of things "experts" should really know.
- Steve
- What does linearity mean.
- What is superposition.
- What is orthogonality.
- How to work with complex spectra.
- How to work with decibels.
The sort of things "experts" should really know.
- Steve
We really don't do service calls, but I do go out to the field, especially at night. We do a lot of work now in January in the Northeast, actually has become one of our buisier months, So I do tend to spend a lot of time out in the field. As I have been told, thats where the money is made. I still hook up, help pour rake asphalt or lay out if that what needs to be done. I expect everyone to do what needs to be done to make the project succcesful, and I am no exception to the rule. Besides, clients are always impressed to see the management involved in the work. Wether or not we do, it makes us look like we know what we are talking about.
I think to answer your question some field labor non engineering work is good for the development of an engineer. I do agree that there is we are not trying to make engineers into riggers or plumbers, but it is good to have been there and done that. Yes not being billable is a cost, but to have engineers who have a sense of what happens to the design once it leaves the office is a good thing. And yes I do believe that hanging around tradesman, you can learn a lot about engineering. But then I believe engineering is much more than anlysis and code compliance.
I think to answer your question some field labor non engineering work is good for the development of an engineer. I do agree that there is we are not trying to make engineers into riggers or plumbers, but it is good to have been there and done that. Yes not being billable is a cost, but to have engineers who have a sense of what happens to the design once it leaves the office is a good thing. And yes I do believe that hanging around tradesman, you can learn a lot about engineering. But then I believe engineering is much more than anlysis and code compliance.
Sompting, I did the same thing, defined drift, displacement, pretty fundamental things in the metrology business but our field support mix up terms all the time so it's difficult to follow. In fairness most of it is probably language barrier, and my verbose descriptions probably aren't easy for them to understand but I did put in lots of pictures and gave it to the in factory tech support to edit, they just have never bothered.
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
MikeHalloran
Mechanical
In a now regrettably former position, I got sent out on occasion, after our semi- custom product and our extremely talented field service staff had failed to solve the customer's problem. My goal was to better understand the _real_ problem, and devise a new variant of the product to fix it.
Most of the customers I met were already very upset with us when I got there. I was our last resort, and "A Team".
There's no feeling quite like turning a pissed-off billionaire into a lifelong customer. I really miss that job.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Most of the customers I met were already very upset with us when I got there. I was our last resort, and "A Team".
There's no feeling quite like turning a pissed-off billionaire into a lifelong customer. I really miss that job.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
SomptingGuy,
Not understanding those terms is indicative of an underlying problem. Are your manuals written in the native language of your users, or are the users simply not qualified in the basic theory they need? Is it the difference between "users" and "button clickers"? But these subjects deviate from the thread's title significantly. Perhaps we should start a new thread.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
Not understanding those terms is indicative of an underlying problem. Are your manuals written in the native language of your users, or are the users simply not qualified in the basic theory they need? Is it the difference between "users" and "button clickers"? But these subjects deviate from the thread's title significantly. Perhaps we should start a new thread.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
SomptingGuy
Automotive
Our manuals are written in English, but the underlying subjects are universal. My particular manual describes how to use the software to do things that a user would normally do with test systems.
An example.
NVH "specialist" from a well known OEM emails us to complain that our program is giving wrong results. Their vehicle has two tailpipes coming out of a rear muffler. He claims (insistently) that the combined level (at a specific order) should be 3dB higher than the individual levels from each pipe taken in isolation. So WHY does our program say it's 6dB higher?
The result, I have to put in a section on how to add decibels, explaining the difference between coherent and incoherent sources.
- Steve
An example.
NVH "specialist" from a well known OEM emails us to complain that our program is giving wrong results. Their vehicle has two tailpipes coming out of a rear muffler. He claims (insistently) that the combined level (at a specific order) should be 3dB higher than the individual levels from each pipe taken in isolation. So WHY does our program say it's 6dB higher?
The result, I have to put in a section on how to add decibels, explaining the difference between coherent and incoherent sources.
- Steve
GregLocock
Automotive
Yeah, that's a shocker. I'd have to say that SDRC's manuals on their modal analysis software were classics for exactly that reason, you could (I did) teach yourself all about modal from them.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.SomptingGuy, I'm very impressed. That's pretty damn good customer service!! I wouldn't expect that level of service from any software supplier. You really should just send them reference to a text discussing that subject, or charge for tutorial services.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
To the Original post,
My current company will send engineers when necessary into the field even to do non engineering work. Some for Durations of up to a month.
However, the salaried employees get all expenses paid and $100 Bonus a day.
Most of the job sites are in the armpit of the Earth, if they did not do this no one would take the jobs...
Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day
My current company will send engineers when necessary into the field even to do non engineering work. Some for Durations of up to a month.
However, the salaried employees get all expenses paid and $100 Bonus a day.
Most of the job sites are in the armpit of the Earth, if they did not do this no one would take the jobs...
Official DIPPED Member -
Drank in PP Every Day
MintJulep and Mike have it exactly right.
Thinking that as salaried personnel you shouldn't get your hands dirty or must be compensated for any time past 40 hours is the type of thinking that promotes unionization of professions.
I've been salaried since I graduated from college. Sometimes I've worked 45 hours in a week, sometimes over a hundred. So what. I've learned so much from field work that has helped me in the rest of my practice I considered it a privilege to do it.
Can you really afford such elitism in the long term?
Thinking that as salaried personnel you shouldn't get your hands dirty or must be compensated for any time past 40 hours is the type of thinking that promotes unionization of professions.
I've been salaried since I graduated from college. Sometimes I've worked 45 hours in a week, sometimes over a hundred. So what. I've learned so much from field work that has helped me in the rest of my practice I considered it a privilege to do it.
Can you really afford such elitism in the long term?
It's not the giving of extra hours to the company that I have a problem with, it's the taking of those hours from the time I should be with family and friends.
100 hours a week without extra recompense is exploitation, unless you really love to do it.
100 hours a week without extra recompense is exploitation, unless you really love to do it.
When employer's are taking advantage of the fact that the employee "loves" his job can be the worst kind of exploitation, since those being exploited ... .. ......... don't even realize it themselves. I don't see where they're helping themselves, other engineers, or the profession as a whole either. In fact these days you may even be taking bread out of other's mouths that need it more than you do. Would you really respect a plumber that works for free? Would you really enter the operating room with a doctor that doesn't charge you for your brain surgery? Ya. Like I'm sure. I personally don't believe you're doing me any favors. Convince me otherwise.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
So, you'd rather have the surgery team that stops in the middle of your surgery and says, Oh, our 8 hours are up, sorry, you'll have to fend for yourself. There were some minor complications and we ran over, so we'll just pick up tomorrow morning where we left off. Bye!"
For myself, I want the team that finishes the job.
And I suppose you'd want to shutdown Medicins sans Frontieres because they give away their services?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
For myself, I want the team that finishes the job.
And I suppose you'd want to shutdown Medicins sans Frontieres because they give away their services?
TTFN
FAQ731-376
I thought you'd be able to come up with better than that.
I'd expect to pay overtime, or have the next crew come on shift. You haven't flown nonstop intercontinental flights over 8 hours with union pilots?
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
I'd expect to pay overtime, or have the next crew come on shift. You haven't flown nonstop intercontinental flights over 8 hours with union pilots?
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
BTW I do pro bono work designing and installing village wells and solar powered water pumps in The Gambia, but not for fat cats, only for officially registered charities. Much more satisfying doing work for people that REALLY need it.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
-
1
- #57
BrunoPuntzJones
Materials
IRStuff,
Sorry, I don't buy it. BigInch isn't suggesting that he would never work past 8 hours a day, or past 40 hours a week. He's just saying that he expects compensation for that extra work (comp time off, bonus, or whatever).
The MSF thing is a non sequitur.
If you don't think you should be compensated for work past 40 hours a week, why do you expect to be compensated for the first 40?
Sorry, I don't buy it. BigInch isn't suggesting that he would never work past 8 hours a day, or past 40 hours a week. He's just saying that he expects compensation for that extra work (comp time off, bonus, or whatever).
The MSF thing is a non sequitur.
If you don't think you should be compensated for work past 40 hours a week, why do you expect to be compensated for the first 40?
Yes thanks Bruno. That's what I was trying to communicate.
In the petrochem engineering field, all the "big engineering houses" happen to have the same policy too. As most of them charge by the hour, they get no money for any engineering hours not charged and working OT w/o charging those hours creates a special havoc with automatic manhour estimate, progress balancing and invoice generation. In fact its these exact concepts that probably explain why its pretty unusual to see an engineer mixed in with all those MBAs and lawyers sitting in those board of director's chairs. They just don't want to take the time to explain those basic concepts to engineers that think they are doing a good job when in reality they're generating negative revenue. Besides, I never thought it looked very good if you couldn't get your work done within normal working hours anyway.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
In the petrochem engineering field, all the "big engineering houses" happen to have the same policy too. As most of them charge by the hour, they get no money for any engineering hours not charged and working OT w/o charging those hours creates a special havoc with automatic manhour estimate, progress balancing and invoice generation. In fact its these exact concepts that probably explain why its pretty unusual to see an engineer mixed in with all those MBAs and lawyers sitting in those board of director's chairs. They just don't want to take the time to explain those basic concepts to engineers that think they are doing a good job when in reality they're generating negative revenue. Besides, I never thought it looked very good if you couldn't get your work done within normal working hours anyway.
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
thread732-220099
So let me get this straight.
Working extra time to fix your own mistakes is unreasonable, degrades the proffession...
Working extra time, away from home over an above what may be reasonably expected of an exempt employee, in potentially dangerous conditions, doing work you may not be qualified to do... because management wont pay hourly staff overtime is a good thing?
I thought engineers were meant to be logical, or am I the one not seeing the logic here?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
So let me get this straight.
Working extra time to fix your own mistakes is unreasonable, degrades the proffession...
Working extra time, away from home over an above what may be reasonably expected of an exempt employee, in potentially dangerous conditions, doing work you may not be qualified to do... because management wont pay hourly staff overtime is a good thing?
I thought engineers were meant to be logical, or am I the one not seeing the logic here?
KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...
Alernative views,
-------------------------------------------------------
Mistakes? Recursive definition....
I thought I made one of those once, but I was wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------
Half my job is fixing mistakes made by the vendor, the office, the construction contractor and the sub contractor and the other half is doing the things they just plain didn't.
-----------------------------------------------------
Coffee breaks, rotation, travel time, vacation, FICA contributions, green lines, yellow lines and red lines are all part of the work.
-------------------------------------------------------
If you don't pay for fixing the mistakes we find, you'll just have to pay field extras for fixing the ones we don't.
----------------------------------------------------
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
-------------------------------------------------------
Mistakes? Recursive definition....
I thought I made one of those once, but I was wrong.
--------------------------------------------------------
Half my job is fixing mistakes made by the vendor, the office, the construction contractor and the sub contractor and the other half is doing the things they just plain didn't.
-----------------------------------------------------
Coffee breaks, rotation, travel time, vacation, FICA contributions, green lines, yellow lines and red lines are all part of the work.
-------------------------------------------------------
If you don't pay for fixing the mistakes we find, you'll just have to pay field extras for fixing the ones we don't.
----------------------------------------------------
"I think it would be a good idea."
- Mahatma Gandhi (1869-1948),
when asked about Western civilization
- Status
Similar threads
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question
- Locked
- Question