Continue to Site

Eng-Tips is the largest engineering community on the Internet

Intelligent Work Forums for Engineering Professionals

  • Congratulations KootK on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!

On Cheating, Engineering and Millenials 16

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scrip

Mechanical
Jun 19, 2017
9
I have a slight problem - I'm in my 2nd Year of my MechE bachelors' degree and I feel out of place. And not in a way that I feel like my classmates are smarter than me, no - I don't think that I'm that smart, but I still manage. No. It's that I feel like I'm doing so much work and not getting rewarded for it, while others are doing substandard work - and often cheating - and getting all the top prizes for that. I need someone experienced to assure me that I'll be OK.

I'll explain my problems as well as I can.

I was always the youngest guy in my class from primary school to my first year in my first university. I was usually two/three years younger than the 2nd youngest person, because I was put into school at 2. You can imagine how I was always considered the baby by my classmates.

In my first year in university, I made a lot of mistakes. I thought that campus life was just like high school life - that as long as I did my exams, I'd be alright and go on to the next year (I placed 8th in my high school exam, out of 220 kids. Being in the 4th percentile can give you a big head sometimes.). I didn't know about hard work, and about seeing projects through. Only when I almost got kicked out did I seriously start studying.

After 3 years there, I eventually left because of quite a lot of issues that I'd be belabouring myself with if I were to explain them here, and transferred to another university in a rural part of my country. My thoughts then were - hey, this is a fresh start for me. I've lived almost all my life in a city with traffic jams and all that, I've been swamped with supplementary exams (I don't know what you guys call them where you are? Retakes?) for courses I'd probably get kicked out off, I can finally leave my Mom's helicopter hover radius :) and make my own decisions... this new university ain't so bad!

The moment I got my student ID, I dove into my books like nothing else. In my life, I don't think I've ever studied like I have been doing these past two years. I've been doing my assignments on time, finishing up lab reports days before they're due (TBH, 2 or 3 days, at least), truthfully providing proper references for all my work... and not cheating in exams or in my CATs. Another difference is that I'm not the youngest any more - I'm actually the 2nd eldest fella in my class. The median age is about 3 years less than mine.

And herein lie the problems: 1) of late, my school hasn't been sticking to its honour code, and 2) I feel that I was born in the wrong generation.

Problem 1)
Cheating is rampant among my current classmates. The reason why is kinda complicated to explain, but lemme try. In my previous university, I got into the engineering program after doing my national secondary school exams of 2009. Where I am, currently, I'm in the same class as people who did their exams in 2014. Higher education is(was/is again) a meritocracy in Kenya, and for you to get into a polytechnic/college/university you list down in a particular order what you wanna study and the uni's you selected are notified by the nation's Joint Admissions Board that you'd like to join them. If your grade in the secondary school exam passes the uni's cut, you get called. If it doesn't, you can try again. STEM programmes are usually reserved for the high achievers. So, back to my problems - between 2012 and 2015, there were lots of leakages of the national exams, and as you might have guessed, there were lots of "high" grades, and lots of people got called to do engineering, even though a lot of them didn't deserve it. It's been stopped now, and the freshers (freshmen?) of this academic year are gonna be here because they deserve it, but what kind of damage has already been done? You then get a situation where people cheat because they know that they'd get really low marks even if they studied, and those who truly deserve to be here have started cheating because everyone else is doing it. The class' first year exam results didn't even fit a normal distribution.

So here I am, in a class with lots of people younger than me who just cheat cheat cheat. Most of my peers have already graduated (had I done well the first time, I'd have graduated in 2015) and are now working, my one true friend who is also an engineering student is on the other side of the country, and he's graduating this year (what will that mean for our friendship?), and here I am, stuck with millenials who can't even use all the resources that we have today to make campus life better for themselves.

You know that joke? "In engineering school, you have 3 choices: proper sleep, a good social life, good grades - pick 2." It helps me no bit that I chose good sleep and good grades, because people see me as that creepy guy who keeps to himself and doesn't talk about shitty shittity shit like sports betting, the latest fashion, current "music", the latest new "musician", mobile games, mindless apps and get-rich-quick schemes, who won't give them my assignments and lab reports to copy (I mean, if you wanna cheat, at least change a few things here and there. They copy-pasted my ENTIRE work word-for-word the few times I've done it. Didn't even change my sentence structure. ????).

Problem 2)
I'm a huge fan of music, and have a 1,500-album collection. All genres, all artistes, all decades... as long as it's music, I'll listen to it. I have to say that it's getting more and more difficult to find good music as the years go by. Why? I don't know, but I recently read somewhere that the reason we think music from long ago was the greatest is because we only remember the good music from long ago. I try to use that to counter feeling that I was born in the wrong generation. But honestly, if I think about it, I'm embarrassed to be a millenial. All these communication methods we have, yet we're lacking in social skills. The whole internet at our fingertips, yet research is difficult for most people (just look at the Reddit sub for engineering students [that's reddit.com/r/engineeringstudents] for example, where most people ask the same mundane questions day in day out). People want to be given prizes just for having been in a competition; should we lower the bar for millenials because nobody's tall enough or no-one can jump high enough? Should we say that a 10kg barbell is 20kg because nobody can carry it, then award everyone equal prizes, including the few who managed to carry 9kg? When did competition become wrong? Why is the society I'm in sissified?

So... I feel like I was born too late to explore new corners of the earth, and too early to explore space. Why was I born at this time? I just want to be a good engineer in a properly-functioning society - that is a society that stands to its beliefs, be they conservative, be they progressive. But today, everyone's mad - the left is mad, the right is mad.

I was reading a thread here where one guy (I've forgotten who) said he's working with millenials, and they (the millenials) think that the instructions he sends them are verbose; they keep writing tl;dr. It made me sad.


Winding up:
There's this story called The King and the Poisoned Well (I'm not good at retelling stories and won't try to do that here, so you should just look it up). Should I just stop resisting and drink the poison?
Those who know how to use a slide rule, am I worrying too much? Was engineering school then the same as now - were people just as lazy then?
Does it get better? When I graduate and start work, will I meet engineers who know what they're doing, or will it just be the same thing that's happening here?
How do I let go of all this stress?


THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.

........................................
The EAC - One People, One Destiny... One Federation.
 
Replies continue below

Recommended for you

Truly great people are out of place no matter what time or era. People with integrity are always in the minority.

Stick to your path of honesty and integrity. Not only does it make you a better person, but in the long run it will make you a better engineer. School ends, but careers endure.

And, yes, science has actually shown that popular music is getting dumber.
 
Does it get better? When I graduate and start work, will I meet engineers who know what they're doing, or will it just be the same thing that's happening here?
How do I let go of all this stress?

You'll meet some who know what they're doing, many of whom will simply be getting on with it without much fuss or fanfare. You'll meet plenty who are making a good living blagging their way through life, jumping from job to job as their level of competence is revealed for what it is.

Will you ever get rid of the stress? Perhaps not, once you start to rise through the ranks where your personal responsibility for people and equipment increases. Stress can be a positive thing, provided it is managed. The higher your own personal standards are, the more stress you'll feel, especially when others fall short of the standards you set yourself. You'll probably have the odd sleepless night when things aren't going as well as they should be. I know I do.
 
You will meet all sorts of individuals in the work force as you have discovered in school. People really haven't changed. Some will simply be in the wrong position for them. One of my first supervisors took advantage of everyone in his sphere of influence and really did not know much about his supposed subject matter expertise. After taking too much advantage of his position, he failed in his assignment and alienated those under him. And for a time was on the outside looking in. He did finally find his ken and wound up as a vice president in sales which suited his glib personality. An engineer he was not.

Don't be too discouraged about those individuals who take advantage of you. They are simply a part of life - just be aware of them and be careful in your dealings with them. There will be many more who are honest and quite brilliant and will provide guidance in your future career.
 
So far as the music goes, don't sweat it. For every Fleetwood Mac there's a Holy Modal Rounders, and nine other even worse bands.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
TheTick said:
Stick to your path of honesty and integrity. Not only does it make you a better person, but in the long run it will make you a better engineer. School ends, but careers endure.

And, yes, science has actually shown that popular music is getting dumber.

This sums up my thoughts as well. When I was in school, my mindset was that I didn't care if other people cheated, cause eventually they would have to get into the real world and they will make terrible engineers. Several years later, I have been proven correct. Some of my former classmates that were rampant cheaters either NEVER worked in engineering or washed out within the first few years.

As for music, there is a reason I haven't turned on the radio in my car in over 10 years.
 
My advice would be to become good at blocking out distractions, for better or worse others' presence is merely a distraction and should NOT impact you in any way. If you find yourself obsessing over their actions then take a break and find some happy thoughts otherwise. In industry you won't get away from lousy, unethical engineers. I once heard and tend to believe that ~20% are brilliant industry leaders, ~60% are okay at their job, and ~20% are con-men surviving off the rest.

JMO as well, but I would be cautious with the rose-colored glasses. As much music sucked during yesteryear as it does today, and many times the best is the least appreciated in its day. You seem to put your elders on a pedestal and in the near future are likely to start noticing many are in that last 20% who will take advantage of blind faith. Many will tell all manner of tales but those that truly used slide-rules are fairly rare in the working world today, they'd have 50+ years in industry when 30-40 is the norm. Most of today's senior engineers and tradesmen have worked entirely in the digital age yet the reality is that many haven't kept up with digital technology. Recognize and give credit to those nearing retirement whose ability with software tools is extraordinary, but don't let anybody give excuses for not knowing the "new tools" or offload work onto you bc of it. A previous employer of mine for example has been using 3d models from the same software supplier for more than 25 years yet many still couldn't do much more than open a model and spin it.

To each their own path, good luck regardless.
 
Grades only matter with getting your first job. I got blasted taking hard classes that three weeks in I realized I would be miserable if I ever had to do this on the job. After that, I just wanted to get through it and put my energy into the classes I was interested in. My GPA suffered. My undergrad university made it so it was that the profs would give a lot of leniency to anyone taking graduate level courses. The idea being that whoever made it this far made it through all the weed out classes. I don't know what to say about that. I could have gotten a lot better grades cheating. Probably, could have gotten decent grades in what I had not been that interested in but I wouldn't have learned anymore. Looking back now, all cheating would have gotten me was a job sooner and I would probably never needed to leave my home state.
 
If there is a culture of cheating and corruption within your country, there may not be anything you can do about that, and you may have to decide whether to go to a different country, behave ethically anyway, or join the crowd. Hopefully, you'll choose one of the first two choices.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Scrip,

The reason old music and old movies and books are so good is that nobody listens to, watches or reads the crap that was turned out back in the day. A few masterpieces have stood the test of time. These are not necessarily the things the critics admired back then.

--
JHG
 
This isn't meant to give you further stress, but the odds are that you will changing jobs a few time, and industries, and maybe entire fields of work once you are out of school and trying to settle into a carrier.
You have a taste of this from changing schools.
Trust me, in the long term flexibility and being able to adapt will your strongest tools.
Other peoples work isn't your concern. I have never worked in a job where there was another person doing the same things that I was. Being able to work on your own and produce reliable results will serve you well for decades to come.

When I was in school there was a guy across the hall from me. For my first two years I only saw him a few times and never spoke with him. He was an EE, and had perfect grades. Then as a senior he decided to take classes that interested him, even if it hurt his grades, and he opened up socially. He had a great collection of jazz records, and was a very interesting guy. Time change and so can you.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
P.E. Metallurgy, Plymouth Tube
 
I am currently working to my Master's degree in US and cheating is rampant here as well.

Luckily, I am also working full time in the field that I am studying, so it is a little easier for me to understand the material as compared to my classmates; but it still pisses me off to see these guys cheating their butts off through long homeworks and during exams, while I am working my butt off to get a good grade.

As others have said, when these cheaters get into the real world, they will be exposed for the amount of work they put in. Stay strong and resist the urge to cheat, it will pay off in the long run.
 
As a side story, my favorite class that exposed the cheaters was my FEM class...

The whole class focused on your ability to code and we had a huge project about coding FEM in a programming language called Matlab.

Rather than give an exam on theory of FEM (which the previous two had been about), the professor asked for examples of how to write code without any warning (basic stuff about how would you write a for loop to do x y and z in an FEM routine). The amount of stone cold stunned faces in the room was hilarious. Lots and lots of Fs on the exams (everyone was copying each others code). Those who did their own projects and homework were rewarded.



 
I think the practice in universities today of giving group assignments helps the parasites. Both my son and daughter complained of getting the same grade as the others in their group, when they did all the work. Supposed to mimic the work environment requiring a team approach, but I think it is just another PC leveling scheme.
 
There's nothing particularly new about cheaters; we had a graduate class at USC back in the 1980s where 6 students copied one person's work; only one person actually bothered to try and make his different, but the statistical odds of 6 integrated circuit layouts coming out identical to the micron is pretty much zero. They got Ds or Fs on that assignment, which pretty much tanked their class grades. Lots of crying and rending of clothes, but to no avail; the grade stood.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
A slap on the wrist. When I went to University, if you got caught cheating like that, you were out on your ear. Punishment not administered by the teaching staff, but if the evidence was clear, by the student Honor Court, under the auspices of the Dean of Students.
 
When I went to University in the late nineties, there were some guys caught cheating on a Fluid Mechanics test. The grades were posted on the wall, as usual, but for these individuals there was a huge red line with a red ink comment: "Failed by fraud". Never heard of anyone cheating again with that professor.

There was also a lot of cheating at the time but I really never cared much about it. I just did my work and moved on, just like in real life.
 
Exactly.
Change what you can change, ignore what you can't change. Move on.
Stop talking about millenials. :)
 
Hang in there, Scrip. I echo the sentiments above - those cheating won't find themselves getting very far, unlike yourself with your current work ethic; such has been my experience, at least. Like many things in life, the more effort you put into your education, the more you'll get out of it.

As for the whole "millennial" debacle, you may actually belong to a micro-generation of Xennials (Generation X + Millenial). Honestly, I don't find lumping people into groups to be productive or worthwhile in the slightest - it seems to be really only be good for insulting or marginalizing them, whether the grouping is based on sex, race, generation, occupation, etc. When's the last time you actually heard someone talk about a "group" of people in a positive way? Yeah, me either - unfortunately, I see society trying to separate us into "groups" more and more, but I digress...

Keep up the hard work - you may remain frustrated until you make it through, but don't falter. I remember working my tail off while others "coasted" around me, but I promise you, looking back now, it was well worth it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Part and Inventory Search

Sponsor