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On Cheating, Engineering and Millenials 16

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Scrip

Mechanical
Jun 19, 2017
9
I have a slight problem - I'm in my 2nd Year of my MechE bachelors' degree and I feel out of place. And not in a way that I feel like my classmates are smarter than me, no - I don't think that I'm that smart, but I still manage. No. It's that I feel like I'm doing so much work and not getting rewarded for it, while others are doing substandard work - and often cheating - and getting all the top prizes for that. I need someone experienced to assure me that I'll be OK.

I'll explain my problems as well as I can.

I was always the youngest guy in my class from primary school to my first year in my first university. I was usually two/three years younger than the 2nd youngest person, because I was put into school at 2. You can imagine how I was always considered the baby by my classmates.

In my first year in university, I made a lot of mistakes. I thought that campus life was just like high school life - that as long as I did my exams, I'd be alright and go on to the next year (I placed 8th in my high school exam, out of 220 kids. Being in the 4th percentile can give you a big head sometimes.). I didn't know about hard work, and about seeing projects through. Only when I almost got kicked out did I seriously start studying.

After 3 years there, I eventually left because of quite a lot of issues that I'd be belabouring myself with if I were to explain them here, and transferred to another university in a rural part of my country. My thoughts then were - hey, this is a fresh start for me. I've lived almost all my life in a city with traffic jams and all that, I've been swamped with supplementary exams (I don't know what you guys call them where you are? Retakes?) for courses I'd probably get kicked out off, I can finally leave my Mom's helicopter hover radius :) and make my own decisions... this new university ain't so bad!

The moment I got my student ID, I dove into my books like nothing else. In my life, I don't think I've ever studied like I have been doing these past two years. I've been doing my assignments on time, finishing up lab reports days before they're due (TBH, 2 or 3 days, at least), truthfully providing proper references for all my work... and not cheating in exams or in my CATs. Another difference is that I'm not the youngest any more - I'm actually the 2nd eldest fella in my class. The median age is about 3 years less than mine.

And herein lie the problems: 1) of late, my school hasn't been sticking to its honour code, and 2) I feel that I was born in the wrong generation.

Problem 1)
Cheating is rampant among my current classmates. The reason why is kinda complicated to explain, but lemme try. In my previous university, I got into the engineering program after doing my national secondary school exams of 2009. Where I am, currently, I'm in the same class as people who did their exams in 2014. Higher education is(was/is again) a meritocracy in Kenya, and for you to get into a polytechnic/college/university you list down in a particular order what you wanna study and the uni's you selected are notified by the nation's Joint Admissions Board that you'd like to join them. If your grade in the secondary school exam passes the uni's cut, you get called. If it doesn't, you can try again. STEM programmes are usually reserved for the high achievers. So, back to my problems - between 2012 and 2015, there were lots of leakages of the national exams, and as you might have guessed, there were lots of "high" grades, and lots of people got called to do engineering, even though a lot of them didn't deserve it. It's been stopped now, and the freshers (freshmen?) of this academic year are gonna be here because they deserve it, but what kind of damage has already been done? You then get a situation where people cheat because they know that they'd get really low marks even if they studied, and those who truly deserve to be here have started cheating because everyone else is doing it. The class' first year exam results didn't even fit a normal distribution.

So here I am, in a class with lots of people younger than me who just cheat cheat cheat. Most of my peers have already graduated (had I done well the first time, I'd have graduated in 2015) and are now working, my one true friend who is also an engineering student is on the other side of the country, and he's graduating this year (what will that mean for our friendship?), and here I am, stuck with millenials who can't even use all the resources that we have today to make campus life better for themselves.

You know that joke? "In engineering school, you have 3 choices: proper sleep, a good social life, good grades - pick 2." It helps me no bit that I chose good sleep and good grades, because people see me as that creepy guy who keeps to himself and doesn't talk about shitty shittity shit like sports betting, the latest fashion, current "music", the latest new "musician", mobile games, mindless apps and get-rich-quick schemes, who won't give them my assignments and lab reports to copy (I mean, if you wanna cheat, at least change a few things here and there. They copy-pasted my ENTIRE work word-for-word the few times I've done it. Didn't even change my sentence structure. ????).

Problem 2)
I'm a huge fan of music, and have a 1,500-album collection. All genres, all artistes, all decades... as long as it's music, I'll listen to it. I have to say that it's getting more and more difficult to find good music as the years go by. Why? I don't know, but I recently read somewhere that the reason we think music from long ago was the greatest is because we only remember the good music from long ago. I try to use that to counter feeling that I was born in the wrong generation. But honestly, if I think about it, I'm embarrassed to be a millenial. All these communication methods we have, yet we're lacking in social skills. The whole internet at our fingertips, yet research is difficult for most people (just look at the Reddit sub for engineering students [that's reddit.com/r/engineeringstudents] for example, where most people ask the same mundane questions day in day out). People want to be given prizes just for having been in a competition; should we lower the bar for millenials because nobody's tall enough or no-one can jump high enough? Should we say that a 10kg barbell is 20kg because nobody can carry it, then award everyone equal prizes, including the few who managed to carry 9kg? When did competition become wrong? Why is the society I'm in sissified?

So... I feel like I was born too late to explore new corners of the earth, and too early to explore space. Why was I born at this time? I just want to be a good engineer in a properly-functioning society - that is a society that stands to its beliefs, be they conservative, be they progressive. But today, everyone's mad - the left is mad, the right is mad.

I was reading a thread here where one guy (I've forgotten who) said he's working with millenials, and they (the millenials) think that the instructions he sends them are verbose; they keep writing tl;dr. It made me sad.


Winding up:
There's this story called The King and the Poisoned Well (I'm not good at retelling stories and won't try to do that here, so you should just look it up). Should I just stop resisting and drink the poison?
Those who know how to use a slide rule, am I worrying too much? Was engineering school then the same as now - were people just as lazy then?
Does it get better? When I graduate and start work, will I meet engineers who know what they're doing, or will it just be the same thing that's happening here?
How do I let go of all this stress?


THANK YOU FOR LISTENING.

........................................
The EAC - One People, One Destiny... One Federation.
 
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In 5-10 years, you won't even care about these things that seem important to you now. Just don't get any tattoos and everything will work out fine.
 
Or... get a lot of tattoos and things will also work out fine.
 
Tattoos depend on location. While it is true that the majority of your skin is covered by business casual clothing, its also true that the majority of employers and colleagues will hold visible tattoos against you.
 
The stigma against tattoos in the business world is dying a quick death I think.

I'm heavily tattooed, and there are people I have worked with for 5+ years that are blissfully unaware.

We're way off topic.. just struck a chord with me for obvious reasons.

If your opinion on someone's level of professionalism or competence is based on art on their skin and not what they actually do and produce, you're no different than anyone who adheres to racist or sexist hiring practices, in that you're going to limit the level of talent you can bring on as a result of whatever bias you may have.
 
The art you wear under your clothes is your own business. If there's art on your hands, neck and face, that's everyone's business. It's no different than piercings or a 14-inch braided beard. It's an outward personal statement that you have consciously chosen to make. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but some professional situations, especially those involving customers, are not the place for outward personal statements. That's not a judgement of personality, character, or integrity, nor does it mean I wouldn't hire you. It just means you might have limited yourself with regard to specific professional career paths. Is that fair?
 
Discriminating against how people were born is a lot different than against people who choose to mark their bodies, dress in a certain style, etc. Art is subjective, just like how you dress. I see tattoos similar to worn jeans - not necessarily bad, but also not professional. At least I can change my jeans.
Having lived in Austin, I know that tattoos are in vogue even among many professionals (but certainly not all). It's not the same *most* other places. As you said, your coworkers don't know you are tattooed. So how does your personal experience (anecdotal at that) speak to your broad claim?

Anyway, it's not a bad idea to wait till your older before getting a tattoo (as I suggested to the YOUNG op), or making any other major/permanent decision for that matter. In what situation is it advisable that you NEED to get a tattoo when you are young, rather than wait till your brain is more fully developed? I got one in my early 20's. I would not choose to get it today. No big deal, but tattoos just aren't that cool to me now. In fact, if you want to show uniqueness as a young person today, don't get a tattoo. Your right, this is off topic, but I also find "proudly" tattooed people slightly pretentious and annoying in regard to their sensitivity about their tattoos. I.E. comparing yourself to a minority because you have a tattoo is downright ignorant. The fact that you even made the post about your tattooed self is just another example...

There's more talented young engineers without tattoos (that are visible) than with. I don't think for nanosecond that I would limit my talent pool in any negative way if I didn't hire someone simply because they had a neck, face or hand tattoo. I'm open minded, so I would still hear someone out, but most people I work with or know would not.

 
FoxRox said:
Is that fair?

Yes.

Terratek said:
As you said, your coworkers don't know you are tattooed. So how does your personal experience (anecdotal at that) speak to your broad claim

I'm a very good engineer. I have tattoos. Many of them. If I wore a short sleeve shirt to an interview (which I wouldn't.. but I digress) and you didn't hire me specifically because I'm tattooed, you'd be making a hiring decision based on something other than competence. I'm not comparing the 'plight of the tattoed' (which isn't a 'plight' at all) the to the very real difficulty that female or minority engineers may encounter during their careers- my only claim is that by writing someone off because they have a (or many) tattoos is narrowing your pool. Maybe that will hurt you at some point without you ever knowing it. Maybe it already has. Maybe it never will.

Terratek said:
In what situation is it advisable that you NEED to get a tattoo when you are young, rather than wait till your brain is more fully developed?

No one ever NEEDS a tattoo, in the hunter-gatherer sense of the word.

Terratek said:
The fact that you even made the post about your tattooed self is just another example...

You felt strongly enough about it to bring it up. I'm going to ignore that comment about being ignorant and just say that if you hadn't opened this door, you'd never have known that I have tattoos, and you could have continued basing your opinion on my level of intelligence and professional competence on the content I release into the world... As we all should, and as you would if I interviewed for a job with your firm and wore a suit.

Terratek said:
There's more talented young engineers without tattoos (that are visible) than with.

This is certainly true.

Terratek said:
I don't think for nanosecond that I would limit my talent pool in any negative way if I didn't hire someone simply because they had a neck, face or hand tattoo.

Like I said above.. that bias may or may not hurt you, and the bright side for you is that you'll never find out either way.

It's just strange to me that you felt strongly enough that your advice in this thread was

'study hard and don't get a tattoo'

I probably get as annoyed by the 'proud to be inked' crowd as you do.
 
'study hard and don't get a tattoo'

To some degree, this admonition isn't necessarily about all tattoos, but is certainly about visible and stupid tattoos, like inking "Stud Muffin" on one's forehead in a drunken haze.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
It's been said many times, but I'll say it once more - stop worrying about everyone else. You are the only person that you have to live with. Life isn't fair. So put on your big boy pants, and just be the best YOU that you can be. Everybody gets the chance to do the same. Most waste it. Will you?

 
Having got to the tedious age where doctors spend a bit of time each year excising ugly bits of flesh (they've left the big bit on the front of my head) the idea of deliberately introducing unknown chemicals subcutaneously is an odd idea. I don't get it. There again I don't get why graffiti is 'street art'. Most of it is inane poor quality imitation of somebody else's work.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
There again I don't get why graffiti is 'street art'. Most of it is inane poor quality imitation of somebody else's work.

So what is this thread now? Just a forum just to passive/aggresively take swipes at everyone outside of our insulated nerd bubble? LOL

Maybe you don't get it, because you don't have an eye for art. Or maybe you only consider the juvenile scrawlings by the side of the freeway. Whenever I go to a new city, I intentionally seek out the graffiti districts. I go out of my way to places like Williamsburg Brooklyn, NYC, to admire what a person with nothing more than a few cans of spray paint, can create. (which I cannot) These places have some amazing artwork. To say that they're "inane" or a "poor quality imitation", is to insinuate that you have some artistic talent, and can better the artist in their preferred medium.

It is the same thing as having a layman tell you authoritatively that you design automotive parts for failure. :rolleyes:



 
Perhaps, they've only seen the bad, cheap imitation graffiti...

Oddly, we're actually agreeing on something ;-)

I think there's a big difference between graffiti for the sake of defacing public spaces vs. those that have have an artistic purpose. Even some of the simple tags are done with a certain flair or flourish and are often both pleasing to look at and a legacy for someone. We, as a society at large, even admire cave art from 30,000 years ago; much of modern graffiti is almost like our equivalent of cave art:

Some have messages, some have an artistic purpose, and some simply reflect a desire to have something that says, "I am not an insignificant insect on the face of the earth." Not that different than, say, Jackson Pollock or Andy Warhol; in some respects, some of the graffiti artists are more artistic than some of Pollock's work.
stock-vector-sports-collage-on-a-large-brick-wall-graffiti-478113481.jpg


TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
If you have made it this far without cheating, then you are to be congratulated and encouraged, and don't start cheating at this point unless it is a life or death decision. Regardless of how successful you become, you would always be able to say to yourself that all of your accomplishments were made without cheating. However, the majority of people would differ with that conlcusion, and probably have the opinion that such behavior is not "rational" .

There are a lot of cheaters out there, and their capacity is extended to cheating on taxes, marriage, drug laws, publications, etc. There is also no shortage of rationales that can be applied to justify cheating, and politicians of course are thoroughly educated on such rationalizations. In some respects, one could argue that studiously following arbitrary rules which are contrary to your immediate interests and gains represents a sort of immaturity as it can be seen as a prolonged child-like behavior pattern,but society depends on a large fraction of the population behaving in that mode for stability .

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
 
Howdy Scrip,
My Dad always used to say:
"There are two roads that will take you where you want to go, the high-road and he low-road. Always take the high-road, it's faster due to less traffic."

Yah, you'll be OK. The good guys always win in the end.
GG


"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." Thomas Alva Edison (1847-1931)

 
I was hoping I might get the odd win here and there before 'the end'. ;-)
 
"Cheating" in the context of being able to find an answer even if it isn't yours should be encouraged in the workplace. There are a lot of successful engineers that haven't had an original idea but knew who to search out. The rule for reinventing the wheel is don't.

 
I've always heard it called "research" in the professional world and cant fathom how the jump to a word with such a negative connotation like "cheating" was made.
 
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