Overtime 16

[RedBauer]

How's overtime typically work with the firms you work with?

I currently am a civil PE that works for an A/E firm and a majority of us are salary. We're overly busy with too much work right now. We are not paid for overtime, so I generally do not work overtime unless it's necessary (i.e., board meetings, client meetings, etc.) that requires me to be on the road. To be honest, my brain is generally fried after 8 hrs of design if I'm sitting at my desk.

We were told recently that we had to work overtime to meet an unrealistic deadline for our architect. After checking around, it appears other firms within the state pay straight time for anything over 40 hrs that's billable. Shouldn't that be the norm? We work on an hourly basis. The billable hours over 40 hrs aren't really subjected to overhead costs, so the company is making money during this time.

Should I work overtime without any compensation? If I work overtime, I have to pay extra for my 9 month old son to be at daycare longer. So technically, I'd be losing money.

 

[xnuke]

At the A/E firm where I used to work, overtime was paid at our salary's equivalent base hourly rate as long as it was billable and the budgeted hours for the project weren't going to be exceeded.

xnuke
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[thaidavid40]

"Should I work overtime without any compensation?" Ideally, you shouldn't. Most reputable firms pay straight time for hours worked past 40 (or for some firms, past 45). However, in most states, they don't have to do squat if they don't want to. The problem appears to be that your company doesn't want to. If they lose enough good people because of that, they might change their way, but this sort of indifference usually comes from the top person, and works its way down. With some firms, it's "load up the wagons, and damn the mules!" Looks like you may have a potential career decision to make in the near future.
Good luck,
Dave

Thaidavid

 

[nickelkid]

RedBaurer, you have described why I no longer work salary! Salary may work for some, but I never, ever came close to getting time after 40 back. So it is by the hour for me.

In the office I am currently in, many are working 50 to 70 hours at 40 hour pay. Well, I am very sure when the money runs out, they will be on the street with me, maybe a week or two later, but so be it. I get paid for working 60 hours when I do, and 40 when I work 40, and 20 when I work 20…

IMO if the company is billing your time, they should pay you for it. NB that can be a two-way street, they may also cut back your hours when things get thin, or just run you off, but at least you did not leave any money on the table.

I started off after college thinking things would be fair and work out, but they don’t. A seasoned engineer let me on to the Golden Rule, that is those with the gold make the rules, and change them at will. So, I save up like the squirrels, preparing for the worst, and it always works out.

Good luck RedBaurer, the job market is really tough and employers know it. I am looking at having the summer without much work. No real solid prospects in sight. God willing that will change soon.

 

[IRstuff]

Overtime is typically only guaranteed for hourly workers. Salaried employees, even those that are billed out by the hour only get overtime if they can get the customer to agree; otherwise, you might get straight time, if you're lucky.

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[RedBauer]

Thanks for the replies. I'll be talking to my supervisor to discuss this issue.

This was never really an issue previously because I never had the workload to work past 40 hrs per week. I've worked for this company for 2 years. In the past 6-9 months my responsibilities have grown (without any pay increase) and now I'm falling behind. This was due to my previous supervisor leaving and I absorbed some of his projects. If they gave decent bonuses, overtime pay wouldn't be a problem. However, they only give $1k-$2k and everyone gets the same bonus whether you're a CAD tech or PE like myself. If things don't change soon, I'll be looking elsewhere.

 

[KENAT]

Former employer in the UK salaried position officially no overtime but some flexibility in hours so if you worked long one day you might leave early the next etc. Officially was 37 hours a week I probably averaged 40 but really enjoyed most of the work. When the workload really piled up they changed their 'no overtime for salaried folk' rule and for a short period paid overtime to a couple of us - I think it was straight time.

Here it's generally the load up the cart and damn the mules philosophy hence one of my immediate colleagues just quit without another job lined up.

However, about 6 years ago under a former Tech Director they were really hot to get some CAD concepts* done and I basically bid how long I thought it would take to do the job (80 hrs) and got a 'bonus' that equated to straight time. That same pay check I got a smaller bonus for my part in a successful product release, and a 3rd mystery bonus that neither my direct boss or tech director could identify where it came from! That was probably my biggest pay check ever!

(I just ECO released the indirect descendant of those CAD concepts last week so I guess it wasn't all wasted money for my employer.)

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[JohnRBaker]

During my nearly 50 year career in engineering I've been compensated as both an hourly and salaried employee.

I got my degree in 1971 and when I started to work full time in July of that year I was put on salary (previous to that I had worked summers as a draftsman paid by the hour). We didn't get paid overtime, but part of your annual increase was supposed to be based on how much extra time you contributed to the company (i.e. worked extra hours). I had no problems with that arrangement, for about a month and half. It was then (I'm sure that some of you may remember this) that President Nixon announced his 'Economic Stabilization Act' that was going to impose a temporary (90 day) 'Wage and Price freeze'. When the end of the year came and the wage freeze was still in effect (so much for it being 'temporary'), our management decided that all salaried personnel, who were NOT managers or supervisors, would be converted over to hourly since you could still get paid overtime and so I went back on hourly. Now this worked out pretty good since as a machine designer I had to spend a lot of time in the field during start-ups and upgrades and so the overtime could be substantial (we didn't even care much about the fact that annual raises were reduced to almost nothing, at least it was in my case). Anyway, when Congress finally realized that the 'Economic Stabilization Act' was a failure they let it expire in the Spring of 1974. Now my company decided to keep things working as it was until 1978 when I was promoted to being a Program Manager in the R&D group and so I was put back on salaried but I got a big raise so I didn't complain too much.

Now later, after I changed jobs and went to work for McDonnell Douglas, while I was again salaried and not paid over time, there were conditions under which they would compensate you for extra works worked if it was either billable or was demand as critical to meet the success of a contract. Now it was straight time only after your 40 hours and then it was limited to no more than what the maximum salary was for your particular job tile. Unfortunately (or fortunately depending on your point of view) I worked for a boss who had managed to get my compensation to near the max so the few times that I did get a chance to earn the 'extra time' I would hit the ceiling pretty quick, but it was better then nothing.

Now that was back in the mid-80's and when our division was sold to EDS, that was the last overtime I ever saw. But with EDS we did get to work 'flex-time' and we had bonus plans, even for people not working under a compensation plan (i.e. non-sales), so the people who put in the extra effort had a way of getting their reward eventually.

John R. Baker, P.E.
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Irvine, CA
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[JedClampett]

The company I'm with is as fair as business can be to themselves and to the employees. So we salaried employees (engineers and a few other higher administrative types) get compensatory time. We bill our time and can either take it as time off, or get paid out once a year. Our company, in turn, charges our hours to our clients. They actually make more off those hours (since rent, overhead, and fixed costs are presumably already paid for) than then regular 40 hour week.
It is a system that doesn't foster resentment (well, not much) for working extra time. You work, you get time off or money. I don't know why everyone doesn't do it that way.

 

[KENAT]

Jed, it's probably too fair and logical for the typical MBA.

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[JohnRBaker]

We also got 'comp time' at McDonnell Douglas but it was only when you had to work a full day that you would normally have gotten-off. Now Saturdays were not included but Sundays were. Also holidays. For example, once during a product roll-out in Europe we had to work on Memorial Day, so we got to set that day aside as a 'comp day' which we could take off as if it were part of our vacation, but you couldn't accumulate more than 10 'comp days' before you had to use'em or lose'em.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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[mtu1972]

Had 7 jobs over a 40 year career. First two were hourly with 1.5 times for OT. 3rd and 4th were salaried but because of my OCD I tracked my hours. Bonuses never covered the extra hours that were mandated for me to meet schedules.

Last three jobs were hourly with varying conditions for overtime pay. No. 5 - straight time for hours over 42 hours per week as long as the project was still profitable. No. 6 - straight time for any OT hours. No. 7 - straight time if your billable hours were greater than 40 for that week. If not, you could bank the extra hours to use as additional personal time that year.

gjc

 

[PEDARRIN2]

There appears to be pros/cons to both sides - and a lot of different scenarios and splits.

I have seen salaried workers taking advantage of the system as well as hourly workers. I have seen companies take advantage of both as well.

Salaried employees can work less than they are expected and still get the same pay. Companies can "force" salaried employees to work more than they are supposed to and get the same pay.

If the workload is lighter, a salaried employee should not complain (unless it is so low they may not be employed) - because hopefully the workload will pick up and they will need to work more, but not be paid more. I have been there.

Hourly employees can work longer (less efficient) and get paid more. There were certain employees that always seemed to be working overtime, but the workload was not as heavy. If they get time and a half - I am not sure how the company bills that extra half since it was not actual time worked. I have been told it is easier to bill and to track it when the employees are salaried.

 

[moltenmetal]

Do not work for zero compensation. It's not just a bad business decision on your part, it is also unethical. What you are doing by accepting that arrangement is de-valuing your own services, and by virtue of doing so, you're de-valuing MY services and those of every other engineer.

We're not talking about the occasional bump of a few hours or maybe a week to meet a deadline, to learn something new or to fix something you screwed up. That's just common courtesy for an employer, in return for taking a long lunch or a medical appointment in the middle of the day.

The only time you should work consistent uncompensated overtime is for some kind of compensation: straight or O/T pay, a bonus, shares, options, or time in lieu that they have to pay out if you don't get to use it.

If your services are being provided on a reimbursable basis to the client and you are not compensated for every hour you work in some way (see above), that is straight up theft.

 

[JedClampett]

The other aspect of working for free is that you're burying bad management/contracts. Let's say PM No. 1 underprices a project. You bust tail, work for free, sacrifice and the project gets out, even turns a small profit. Next project, do you think PM No. 1 is going to budget any less? Heck, it worked once, he got a big pat on the back. He/she might even cut the budget a little more. The pattern is not sustainable.
Fairly charging productive hours is not only ethical, but it's responsible. Losing money on a project is a helpful tool on estimating and management techniques. It's the best sign there is that you're doing something wrong.
And making money by abusing employees is short sighted.

 

[nkrigPE]

The company I work for pays all non-owners hourly and time and half for any hours over 40, double time for over 60. My base 40-hour salary is probably 10k or so less than what the firm across town pays, but I work about 45 hours a week and bring in almost 20k a year over my base. I like the arrangement and it has served me and the company well. It's been hinted at that I'll be invited to join the partnership soon, the raise and potential bonuses will have to be pretty solid to offset that OT pay loss.

 

[MartinLe]

There's an added complication where I work (huge consultancy): We need to bill our hours to projects, but may only bill 40 h/week to projects irregardless how much we actually work + there's always some shuffling going on between better and worse projects. So basically upper management invented a system that another layer of management constantly cheats.

While I understand the theory of billing hours to projects, especially in a shop that only sells services, in practice it's always a sort of management by the nuhmbers that leads to lower/middle management massaging the numbers.

This is a problem for us engineers/drafters etc because it's standing in the way of a proper time management system. So it's up to each of us individually to keep track of OT and negotiate with our bosses time off in lieu. Which so far was not a big problem, but still.

(I work in Germany, over here OT has to be paid or be able to taken as time off (unbless you're a manager), AFAIK clauses like "OT is paid with the salary etc." don't hold up in court.)

 

[MrHershey]

Was hesitant at first, but my company has been good about compensating for the hours. Don't get paid hourly or anything but they certainly keep track of it and it factors into bonuses at midyear and end of year. Can't just sandbag it and do a normal amount of work in an abnormally long amount of time, of course. We're a small business, it's pretty obvious when someone isn't pulling their weight. But if you're legitimately working long hours and getting more done as a result, they've been good (at least so far, for me) of compensating for that. If anyone feels differently, there's other games in town to earn a living and employees can certainly feel free to talk with their feet. Hasn't been much talking going on and we typically do very well in the 'firms to work for' surveys, so the approach seems to be working. Even the field guys stick around, even though they'd be hourly employees anywhere else (and thus getting a ton of overtime) and have plenty of opportunities with the market the way it is right now.

As for the PM issue above, it's certainly something that's important to keep track of. For everyone, not just PMs. I'd actually be wary of companies that limit the dispersion of this information to management and PMs. Think it's important for everyone to know how we're doing and where we might need to improve. Everyone in our company, principals to receptionists, has access not only to our budgeted hours (if a formal budget was done, hopefully it was) and the current amount of billed hours, but also to our signed proposals/agreements. Have personally found it helps to breed ownership and responsibility. Everyone knows (or can know) exactly what we're doing, exactly what we're being compensated for it, and exactly how we're doing compared to the amount we're getting compensated. We're a smaller company, so it's easier. But think it's something that a big company should aspire to responsibly disseminate to their workforce as well.

 

[berkshire]

A summary of different practices, based on my 51 years in the work force, before, I retired.

Hourly employees nonunion, some companies no overtime pay, comp time instead. Others pay time and a half for more than the standard work week. Some companies work 4- 10 hour days for a 4 day work week with any overtime on the 5th day.

Union companies, hourly time and a half for everything over, either the standard work day, or the standard work week. Double time paid after working more than twice normal work day. Double time for working on paid holiday, triple time for working more than normal work week into and across paid holiday. It should be noted that most trade unions hate nonstandard work weeks, and will resist them tooth and nail in union contracts.

Salaried pay small companies. A certain amount of uncompensated overtime expected and factored into the salary.
Large companies with work agreements, Salary plus overtime pay after a certain number of hours, comp days allowed instead of overtime hours.
The standard work week varies by country from 40 to 36 ½ hours.
B.E.


You are judged not by what you know, but by what you can do.

 

[Ron]

I have been a consulting engineer for almost 40 years. For almost 30 of those years I worked on a salary basis and was NEVER paid overtime. The past 11 years I have worked completely for myself, being paid only what I bill. I ran my own company once before and actually paid myself a "salary"....no overtime.

If you want overtime pay, go get a non-professional job. If you are a professional engineer, you should be working on salary and putting in the hours necessary to get the job done. Yes, it seems unfair at times; however, it demeans the profession to do less. Unfortunately more and more engineering corporations are being run by bean counters who promote this atmosphere of commodity engineering. I don't subscribe to that and will not do so. To some this may seem an archaic principle, but I'm convinced that caving in to this philosophy of non-professional attitude is what has gotten us to this point of even having to discuss it.