P.E SEAL a question of ethics 2

[radekw]

I am a recent graduate engineer working for a structural engineering company in Canada. I work directly under the supervision of professioal engineers licenced in Ontario and they take responsibility for my work by directly reviewing and stamping/signing my work.
My company also does work in the U.S. and recently I have been involved with a project in the state of New York.
No one at the office here has a P.E seal from New York so we hired a P.E with a New York seal to stamp the drawings for us. The issue is that he doesn't actually review the drawings but instead he has provided us with a scanned copy of his signed stamp with a direct reference to the project written across the stamp.
Are there any legal issues regarding this type of use of the P.E seal? I use his stamp on letters that address specific issues the contractors may have, but I also sign the letters myself; could this be considered forgery even though I technically have his permission to use the stamp?

 

[VAD]

The company who has solicited this type of deal is also subject to review and in my opinion would be culpable as well as the NY Engineer. Having said that, this practice goes on much more often in Canada than we think. It is often seen as an easy way to make money, notwithstanding the embarrasment and fines that can result. I would seriously question the ethics of the company as well. You may wish to discuss this with your boss. I am really surprised at your company allowing this type of non professional conduct.

As an aside, some Associations in Canada have sanctioned the use of worked being farmed out to overseas companies but the stipulation is that such work must be reviewed and stamped by the responsible persons in the company that has shipped the work overseas. The bottom line is dollars although it is said and accepted that lack of staff and busy schedules warrant such action.

 

[Ashereng]

radekw,

I am not a lawyer.

Interesting. All else aside, in reply to your query of "forgery": When you sign on his stamp, do you sign his name or yours?
If you sign your name, then I don't think it is forgery.
If you sign HIS name, then I think that is forgery.


In general, I am also with zcp - before taking any action, be certain of the facts. To accuse someone wrongly is also unethical, and illegal (defamation and/or libel in this case).

Having said that, using another engineer's stamp is probably illegal in most jurisdictions. Using another engineer's stamp, and signing his signature, is probably illegal, and also falls under forgery. In addition, fraud may come into play. And, in this case, conspiracy may be involved since there are many people involved. Lastly, since this crosses both state and international borders, someone may be contravening international agreements, national laws of both countries and such.

Interesting.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
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[JAE]

One more point (of the many many well stated points above) is that IF ANYTHING EVER FELL DOWN ....

the PE's attorney could very well say something along the lines of "Hey, they stamped my seal and signed my name - I had no control over what they did. They forged my name. I had NO IDEA they were doing this. Yes, I had them apply my seal to some projects, but only those that I personally had supervision over. This one they just used my stamp in an unethical way as they NEVER told me they were doing this."

...it could happen.

 

[DRC1]

Seeing how you are a recent grad you are probably low man on the totem pole, which is how you got stuck with this. Obviously this is not a good situation. You should confirm what you said to be sure it is correct. Document everthing in detail and keep a copy at home. If something bad happens, they are not interested in sactioning you, but they wll talk to you about the practice and suddenly everyone is going to be surprised at what you were doing. Tchnically, fixing someonelse signature to a document to look like they wrote or reviewed it when they did not maybe forgery or fraud. If the work is federal work, it may be subject to false claims action.
In any case you probably can't change the firm, so carefully document who told you to do what. I would also seriously consider if this is a firm you want to work for

 

[Ron]

Unethical and illegal in the US. I believe it also violates the ethics considerations for which you Canadians have a separate and important part of your own licensing requirements.

Don't condone it. Don't participate in it. Report it.

 

[dik]

A couple of issues... as a recent graduate, he should approach his mentor (superior?) and be careful of how he approaches this. He has a career to 'sh*tcan'. It can be approached from an ignorance point of view and that he's just wondering... It is possible that the work is being reviewed by the EOR behind the scenes.

At various times, I've been involved with projects where the owner (for insurance reasons) has sealed work that I've done. I've not asked the owner for details about his review... and, I assume he has done this... Even for small projects, when I've prepared the invoices to the client, I've always included an estimated time for the owner to review the work and tagged it as No Cost, for PR reasons as well as covering parts of my anatomy... Invoices were generally signed by the owner, or at very least copied to him...

The practice described by radekw is illegal and unethical in any of the provinces I'm registered in excepting 'behind the scenes' review by the EOR.

 

[RossABQ]

I think there is potentially more "gray area" here than is being stated. First of all, an electronic seal image is commonly allowed (WITHOUT SIGNATURE) to be affixed by the CAD jocks; it is WORTHLESS until it is wet-signed and dated. I'm not hearing anything here that says he has given them an electronic scan of his SIGNATURE, just his seal. It sounds like the use of the electronic seal is being limited by the "project reference", which indicates a concern for liability; anyone concerned about liability wouldn't be passing out his signature.

This would be such an egregious violation if things were as described that I can't believe it is the whole story.

I agree with zcp, I suspect the junior engineer is simply not aware of the whole picture.

 

[davidbeach]

From the OP

scanned copy of his signed stamp with a direct reference to the project written across the stamp.

Sounds to me like it already signed.

 

[RossABQ]

Guess I missed that word "signed". Stick a fork in him, he's done!

 

[gibson64]

I have not read through this entire thread, but per my recent posts, NY has very specific rules about stamping documents in NYS (which may be the same as other states). Check the New York State Department of Education website FAQ:

http://www.op.nysed.gov/pefaq.htm.

It discusses who and who may not perform services in NY as well as stamping/sealing issues.