PE Exam Flunkie 4

[Okieduck71]

Hello all!

I have just failed the PE exam for the 3rd time. Needless to say, Im very discouraged as I have done everything from taking classes to sample exams as suggested by everyone. Ive got the CERM all tabed up, bought all 6 minute solutions books, and taken sample PE exams. Ive been told that maybe I should go into Construction Management or get my MBA if I want to succeed in my career with out a PE. Since I graduated 5 years ago, Ive mostly been employed with a government agency (COE, DOT and City) with little to no design experience. Now I work for a small engineering design firm doing hydrology and hydraulics on HEC-HMS and HEC-Ras and design roads and enjoy it very much. I used to believe in the "3 strikes and your out" rule, but now Im not so sure.

The first 2 times I took water resources and did fairly well in a few subjects (88 scores). Then I made the mistake of taking transportation and did worse than the first 2 times. I was thinking I should try geotech next October since Im due to have my second child this Feb, and there is no way I could take it in April.

I was also wondering what everyone thinks about the new Masters Degree or equivalent requirement to take the PE. As a member of ASCE, I know NCEES is thinking of implementing this as soon as 2010. I really dont think more college courses are necessary, since Ive learned more on the job than I ever did in college.

I appreciate any positive input to my thread. Dont waste your time if you think Im just retarded.

 

[francesca]

I haven't heard of a masters degree requirement. Tennessee recently changed the law to have a masters degree alternate, for those with non-ABET undergrad degrees.

I really think that switching disciplines is shooting yourself in the foot for the exam. The AM session is quite simplistic, so you should be able to get through that with a broad understanding, but for the depth section you need to focus on your subject, on the specific areas covered for your exam, in order to do well. There is very little overlap between water resources and transportation, and even less between water resources and geotech.

I took the Transportation PE with the CERM, the NCEES sample exam and the AASHTO Green Book. I finished the AM in 2 hours and the PM in 3. If I'd taken in more resources I'd've wasted more time thumbing through them. There was one problem I needed another reference for, and I was happy to guess that problem rather than have carried the book with me. It's not about how much money you spend on your resources and preparation (I saw someone with every publication put out by Lindberg et al), but rather how much time you spend getting to know them so you can get to the info fast.

I took it 5 months pregnant, while a masters student, knowing it was do or die for me as taking it with a 2 month old baby and a full-time job was not an option. You need to find a way for there to be more hours in the day for you to do practice problems. It's the only way to succeed in a timed test. As a parent with a full-time job, that's a tall ask, I know. My son is now nearly 11 months old and I've done nothing on my thesis in a year.

 

[Rye1]

Some people just not good at taking tests. I know an engineer that did not pass until the 6th time. I would stick with the water resourses.

I like the Master's degree idea, but I don't know if it is practical. There is an engineer shortage in my area, increasing the standards will only make it worse. Maybe we should develope aa E.A. program (Engineers Assistant) just like the medical community has done.

 

[HgTX]

It looked to me like the difficulty level of all the non-structural fields was about the same, so I don't think you'd have any advantage in switching away from the subject matter you normally work with, which sounds like water resources.

I know three people who took four tries to pass. Granted, they're not the most brilliant guys in their offices, but I know another guy who's an excellent engineer who took 3 tries. Don't give up yet. As Rye1 said, some people are not good at tests.

What prep classes have you taken? Have you tried the ppi2pass CD-ROMs?

Regarding the master's "requirement", here's something from

http://www.todaysengineer.org/2006/nov/NCEES.asp

It must be emphasized that although NCEES writes, produces and scores the PE exam nationally, laws governing the qualifications required to become licensed are established by the legislature in each state that regulates the practice of engineering. The NCEES provides its Model Law and Model Rules for use as guidelines by the states in the preparation or revision of licensing laws and rules of conduct for professional engineers and surveyors. At this point, it is unclear how many or how quickly individual states will amend their laws to mandate additional education beyond a baccalaureate degree.

Hg

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[Qshake]

I think you must petition the board after failing the exam so many times. The primary purpose is to talk with engineers to determine what is the best course of action that will allow you to pass.

You should look into that before spending additional money.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[msucog]

i agree with francesca about the amount of material to bring. to be honest, on the day of the test i thought i was at the wrong place when i showed up at the place because it looked like some sort of convention was going on with folks rolling in massive amounts of boxes (which turned out to be many, many books). and i'm sure that works for some people but not me. i took in 4 books with me and passed the first time i took it (which was not very long ago). i'm no genious and i stink at taking tests. on top of that i only studied 10 hours total with about 2-3 hours of that working through a few problems (my lack of studying was due more to an overload at work + having a kid and wife to take care of). i focused on being familiar with where material was located within the references. (here's what i used--the top 4 publications on the page

http://ppi2pass.com/ppi/PPIShop_ct_CIVIL).

after talking with some folks during lunch at the exam, most that i talked to had already taken the exam at least once. the advantage that i found was that they all said they never deal with the material that is on the test while i happen to deal with a lot of different related "stuff" at my job. like i said, i don't know the information forwards and backwards (off the top of my head), but i usually have an idea of what direction to head and can find the relevant information once i go looking. i do wish i would have had my civil engineering manual (don't recall the name but it's once of those 800 page books that has lots of info about all things related to civil engineering). and again, it's because i can more readily find material in there than in other books.

here's a perfect example of what happened to me in the exam: i was flying through the test and then came to water resource questions...my mind went blank because i didn't glance over that material. i said to myself "hazen williams...i know hazen williams...???...what the heck is the hazen williams equations? oh crap i can't find the equation!" i spent 1.5 hrs on 6 water resource questions because i couldn't find the stupid equations and didn't know them. that was right before lunch. as soon as i came back from lunch, i happened to flip open one of my references and it opened to the equations i needed. i think i got lucky by ruling out answers that seemed unlikely candidates.

good luck <---and that coming from someone that had a whopping 2.14gpa in college--yes, on a 4 point scale (at least i did better in my civil classes since they were interesting to me). in case you don't know, a person's gpa or the number of plaques/certificates on a person's wall does not make them a great engineer. however, we must play that game because there has to be a minimum standard somewhere (i happen to think the standard is too low and maybe not proportioned to the subject areas that it should). i've met folks with 3.9+ gpa's (b.s and m.s) from high ranking universities but they were horrible at what they did. i'm sure they would have done much better working in theory rather than on a construction site. likewise, i'm horrible when it comes to certain things so i try to rely on my strong points while working on improving my weak points. for example, since i seem to possess a fair amount of common sense (well above my academic potential), the first thing i did when i looked at a question on the test was to rule out "obvious" wrong answers. and if i couldn't automatically throw out an answer, i'd start trying to bully my way through the problem. i was somewhat surprised that i finished the test early and passed.

i see now that my response is getting rather long and wordy so i'll leave it at this: hang in there, get focused more on one area that you feel comfortable with or are more interested in, and go from there. the best advice i can give is to get efficient with a minimal amount of materials and see if that doesn't help.

 

[msucog]

i just thought of one point regarding my comment about the 10 hours of total time i studied...it was not enough. i don't want to inadvertenty give anyone the impression that they shouldn't study much. as i said, my field of work covers several areas(concrete, steel, soils, geotechnical design, materials testing, building code, etc) so i'm essentially studying all the time at work. based on my experience, i'd say 40+ hours of studying review should be set as the absolute minimum. as a reference, the last 6 or 8 people at my branch office that took the test over the past year or so all passed (some first timers and some second timers). so, in my opinion, the field of work has a substantial contribution to the performance on the test.

as i said, just wanted to clear that up...and good luck.

 

[BajaRed]

Don't give up... I too waited a few years to take mine, and by the time had a LOT of experience. To make a long story short, it took me a few times which blew my mind, but I attribute it to freezing up during the exam, so keep trying... you will make it. Don't let it beat you.

 

[bimr]

Perhaps it would help if you put the issue in perspective. There are hundreds of thousands maybe millions that have passed the PE test. Not all of them would be classified as brilliant.

You had the profession as a goal at one time. Take a short break and then start working again toward the goal. It will be easier every time that you try.

 

[DarthSoilsGuy]

take every practice exam for geotech you can get your hands on and compare with the other practice exams you can take.

geotech
the water questions and transportation questions will be a lot easier than you were use to seeing. the structural questions will probably be basic enough (reactions, moments, moment of inertia). You'll have to be proficient with all the soil/water/air, retaining wall, and footing questions as all of the above must be what you get right, because seismic soil, flow nets, and special topics are the high-hanging fruit.

i assume you have the Civ Egr Ref Manual, Practice Problems, and Sample Exams, and hopefully some other practice exams from friends.

The <50 page section on Geot. is mandatory must understand. take it slow and learn it again for the 1st time. if you can do the practice problems and tie them to the examples you should be fine. do them all, and if you don't understand keep trying.

make a weekly schedule from now until the test for sections to cover. have it 100% done before you sign up for a class. at the class ask the questions that stumped you still. after the class take those practice exams again and see how you improved.

 

[CivEnvEng98]

Okie,

how close were you from passing the water resources tests? 5 pts? 20 pts?

If you were 5 to 7 pts or less from passing I would go back and take the water resources portion again. I would make sure and spend plenty of time tabbing your books for key formulas/concepts. Keep taking the practice tests and then go back and redo the questions you missed after reviewing the correct answers until you've answered them all...maybe there will be small set of questions that aren't worth the time to teach yourself how to answer, but try to minimize that...say less than 5% of the questions if you can.

Also, not many people know this (at least I didn't until right before the test) and I called NCEES offices to confirm before my PE test, but you can take copies of any notes you wish to bring into the exam. You cannot take the actual handwritten notes into the exam becuase they fear it would be difficult for proctors to distinguish hand written practice exam questions you brought in as an aid during the test versus trying to walk out with actual questions from the exam. I brought in about 5 pages of notes I made where I conglomerated key equations I thought I would need and I actually brought in a few pages of notes from some of my actual classes from college all of which I made a copy of for the big test day ... that helped me a good bit. It also helped minimize the number of books I took in.

If you were 10 pts or more each time....then I suggest walking away from the tests for a bit and re-evaluate your career path.

Good luck to you.

 

[chicopee]

Here is a tip that may help you before you take the next exam. This tip worked out for me the first time on both tests. Everynight and weekend do as many problems in every discipline until test time. Don't let up! Your determination must be relentless and this may require sacrifice from family and friends.

Do all the problem in every textbook that you have accumulated in college. Then get into doing as many problems in engineering handbooks, internet examples and the NCEES engineering exam manual. The key is the exposure to doing as many problems as possible.

Catalog and keep all problems that you have done as they may become valuable in time well after you have passed your PE exam..

 

[HgTX]

We were allowed to bring any notes you wanted in as long as they were in ink (only pencils were allowed in the exam room) and in a 3-ring binder, not loose.

We could also have anything scribbled in the margins of our books as long as it was in ink.

I took a risk and left all my penciled margin notes from school days in place (I hate writing on my books in ink), and no one cared.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[chetoce]

When working out the sample problems, try to right every step out. Doing so could easily jog your memory so you remember how you solved that problem, what variables you need to obtain, etc. In your solutions, write down the question so you know immediately what type of problem you had solved. Most importantly: don't give up. Once you get your license, you'll be done!

 

[ChipperB]

Okieduck,
It is natural to be discouraged, but I would tell you to keep your head up and don't give up yet. At the Engineering Boards website they have started a 4 timers club

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showforum=15.

I found reading the posts to be inspirational as most of them are not ready to give up yet. My opinion is that if you had the tenacity to earn an engineering degree that same tenacity will allow you to eventually pass the PE exam.

 

[yogia]

Hi Okieduck71:

You have received very good counsel from a lot of people. No giving up ... of course not -- remember as long as you don't quit you have not failed.

Apart from being well prepared, the references you take along to the exam should be used only to locate where to find what ... the references are not to be used for material that you are not already familiar with.

Now if you don't mind here is some NewAge Thinking ... during the exam, have a positive frame of mind, don't get upset, don't consider any question as a silly question, and don't swear at the person who wrote the question -- your frame of mind comes through in your response to the question.

Wishing You The Very Best ... and please do keep us posted with your progress.

Yogi Anand, D.Eng, P.E.
Energy Efficient Building Network LLC
ANAND Enterprises LLC

http://www.energyefficientbuild.com

 

[BelspringKen]

Okie,


Lots of good advice here. Yogi is right.. don't get anxious or rattled. I think that can be a major problem for some - it was a bit of a problem for me.

I hope your scores have been increasing.. if so , then stay with water resources. I have done a lot of development work, but went with Transpo, since I do not have much exp. with water and wastewater treatment.

Take a good look at those areas that gave you trouble, and learn the basics of those. Practice exams were a big help to me in getting ready - I took 2 during my 3 month prep period prior to passing.

 

[COEngineeer]

I am the pure example of a person that doesnt know much but know how to take an exam. I dont consider my self a great "structural engineer" and I managed to pass the 2nd tries. You really need to be sure you know how to use the lindeburg manual and make sure you put tabs for each subject on it. To be honest with you, I only go through 1 book of practice exam for morning and afternoon. I also go through the 6 min solution. The combination of knowing how to use the manual and remembering where to find a similar problem in the practice exam is the key. If I can do it, you can do it. For some reason most CE are afraid to take the structural afternoon. My only advice is, TAKE THE AFTERNOON EMPAHSIS WHERE YOU HAVE BEEN EXPOSED THE MOST! I think it is very unethical if I decided to take transportation for the afternoon and keep doing my current job (structural design). So if you are doing water, then please take water. And you really need to do very well in the morning session!

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[COEngineeer]

The Lindeburg practice problem are WAY TOO DEEP! Most of the problems will take you 20 min to solve. I wouldnt spend time on it. Only do the practice exam I think.



Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[drkgray]

Okieduck71

I'm taking the test for the first time this year... I'll admit, even with a BS, 50% MEng, and 10 years experience across the board, I'm scared $h!tless... Have you considered the Construction option for Depth?

Like msucog, I have worked in many areas of civil & surveying while working for the COE & municiple governments. I felt most comfortable (at least up front) studying for an area with which I have the most familiarity.

Good luck and hang in there!