PE Reference 3

[controlnovice]

Has anybody had to give someone a poor rating when filling out the PE reference form for someone trying to get their PE license?

The situation just came across my desk from a previous co-worker. I don't feel comfortable them being able to lead, make sound judgement calls and make safe decisions. (one reason he is a PREVIOUS co-worker - and no, I was not his supervisor)

I already know what I'm going to do. Just wondering if anybody else has done it.



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[MintJulep]

Why not just decline his request for you to provide a reference?

 

[ccor]

I went through an almost identical situation recently. I politely returned the form to the applicant and suggested that he get a reference from his direct supervisor. I would not provide a poor reference to the state.

 

[zdas04]

Hold-it there maties. Do you mean that you would withhold information that you KNOW to be germane and accurate from the board? I can think of two or three places in the code of conduct where you would be violating the code by not writing a truthful letter.

If you just don't like the guy and think that he probably does a poor job (as opposed to having evidence of his incompetence or malfeasance) then declining is reasonable, but if you KNOW, you can't just decline.

David

 

[Ashereng]

David,

I hold your comments in esteem, and I still do. I would like to add a bit to your post above.

I think the key here is uncomfortable.

There is nothing wrong with declining to be a reference. I have worked with lots of people that I felt were sub-par when we worked, only to discover that they were very good in another area. To say someone is incompetant is a very serious charge, and one to be made only if one is very sure of that assessment. To do so otherwise is also unethical I believe.

controlnovice,

Just a quick question. How did this get to your desk in the first place? People usually ask you first if you would be a reference befor giving your name to the board. When someone asks me if I would be a reference for them, I usally answer yes or no. This avoids all the hassle of me having to send a package back because I am unsuitable as a reference.

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Albert Einstein
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[ccor]

zdas04,

I can only speak for my case, and in Colorado the reference form specifically asks the question, "I have personally reviewed the Applicant's plans, calculations, and/or reports." I felt it was better that he used someone who could answer "yes" to this. Also, there are places in the code that prohibit criticizing / defaming another engineer (not just registered engineers either). Had I been in responsible charge of his work, I would be better able to assess his qualifications for licensure. Having said that, I do believe your comments are valid in other cases.

 

[HgTX]

"If you just don't like the guy and think that he probably does a poor job (as opposed to having evidence of his incompetence or malfeasance) then declining is reasonable, but if you KNOW, you can't just decline."

But in that case, we'd also be required to contact the board about applicants even if they DON'T ask us for references. "Hello, board? I heard a rumor my jackass co-worker is applying for a license, and just so's ya know, he's an idiot no matter what his bosses say."

I mean, why should whether the Incompetent Person actually ASKS us for a reference affect our responsibility to notify the board, if such a responsibility really exists?

It would be different if the board contacted us and asked us for a reference on the Incompetent Person (and in that case a "no comment" would probably get their attention just as well), but that's not what we're talking about here.

Hg

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[zdas04]

HgTX,
I deleted a paragraph from my post that said exactly what you said when I went back to the OP and saw that it was a reference for an original PE application. If it was a request for an annual NCEES re-certification letter then I think you would have that obligation if you have knowledge relevent to their certification.

The whole issue in my mind is a question of whether you lack the knowledge to recommend someone in good conscience or you have knowledge of inappropriate skills or performance. In the former, it is reasonable to decline. In the later it is not reasonable to decline and you should have already forwarded that evidence to the board when it became available.

David

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

http://www.muleshoe-eng.com

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[zdas04]

ccor,
When I got my licence in Colorado I was working for a Landman and every one of my references were people who were not able to check that box (half of them were not even in Oil & Gas). I guess it didn't matter that much as the board approved my application.

David

 

[ccor]

David,

You're correct it’s not required. Perhaps it was a convenient excuse as much as anything. One I would use again in the same situation.

Chris

 

[HgTX]

zdas04--but again, if I know the idiot next to me is applying for a license but isn't asking me for a reference, am I obligated to initiate contact with the board to report said idiot as an idiot?

Hg

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[Ashereng]

HgTX,

Let say he is an idiot. Let say he doesn't stamp anything and is working under another PE who is doing the final check and stamping.

Is he doing anything that is reportable to the board?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[rholder98]

Another thing to consider is that if he is that big an "idiot", to the extent that he poses a threat to the public, surely others would notice, and would either decline to act as a reference, or tell the truth on the form, as controlnovice is doing. If other engineers do not see a problem with him being in responsible charge, then let them write the good reference, and you can still sleep at night. If we don't take this responsibility seriously, it defeats the purpose. We are asked our professional opinion about a candidate, because we are expected to honor our profession.

 

[MrMojito]

There is someone in my office who is pursuing licensure and has the necessary technical skills to be a good engineer. Where he falls short is in his ethics. He has a "Mafia Contractor" mentality and thinks that profit takes precedence over safe design. I hope that he doesn't ask me to give him a reference, because I will probably recommend to the board that he be required to take an ethics class before being allowed to sit for the PE exam.

 

[MintJulep]

I see four options:

1. Provide the reference.

2. Provide a negative reference.

3. Decline to serve as a reference without explaination to the applicant.

4. Decline to serve as a reference with explaination to the applicant.

In controlnovice's case a former co-worker has asked CN to serve as a reference. At the time of their association, CN was not impressed with the applicants abilities. The applicant and CN have not been associates for some (undisclosed length) of time. It is possible that the applicant has worked erradicate his weaknesses in that time, and that CN is now unaware of the applicant's level of compentency.

So,

Option 1 should be clearly out of question.

Option 2 carries the potential of restricting the advancement of the applicant based on possibly outdated information.

Option 3 puts the onus of the decision of whether the applicant is or is not fit with the board, where it belongs.

Option 4 might go one of two ways:

CN: "You know, when you and I worked together I felt that you had weaknesses in the following areas. Because of those I am not willing to provide a reference for you."

Whereupon the applicant might respond:

"You're right, I was young and immature when we worked together. Since then I have grown professionally ..." CN might now either suggest that the applicant seek reference from a more current collegue, or agree to provide a reference.

Or,

"F&^$ You!, I always figured you for and a%^*$&^, but I thought that you would be a stand-up guy." CN still has the option of writing an unsolicited letter to the board.

Option 4 is probably the most correct, but also the most difficult.

 

[JAE]

HgTX:

From the Texas PE board laws:

§137.51 General Practice
(a) In order to safeguard, life, health and property, to promote the public welfare, and to establish and maintain a high standard of integrity and practice, the rules relating to professional conduct in this title shall be binding on every person holding a license and on all firms authorized to offer or perform engineering services in this Texas.
(b)[red] License holders having knowledge of any alleged violation of the Act and/or Board rules shall cooperate with the Board in furnishing such information or assistance as may be required.[/red]

and....

§137.55 Engineers Shall Protect the Public
(a) Engineers shall be entrusted to protect the health, safety, property, and welfare of the public in the practice of their profession. The public as used in this section and other rules is defined as any individual(s), client(s), business or public entities, or any member of the Texas Engineering Practice Act and Rules Page 46 of 57 Effective 3/20/06
general population whose normal course of life might reasonably include an interaction of any sort with the engineering work of the license holder.
(b) Engineers shall not perform any engineering function which, when measured by generally accepted engineering standards or procedures, is reasonably likely to result in the endangerment of lives, health, safety, property, or welfare of the public. Any act or conduct which constitutes incompetence or gross negligence, or a criminal violation of law, constitutes misconduct and shall be censurable by the Board.
(c) Engineers shall first notify involved parties of any engineering decisions or practices that might endanger the health, safety, property or welfare of the public.[red] When, in an engineer’s judgment, any risk to the public remains unresolved, that engineer shall report any fraud, gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct, unethical or illegal conduct to the Board or to proper civil or criminal authorities.[/red]

So this seems to suggest that since an engineer's primary responsibility is for the public health, safety, and welfare, and you are aware of some violation or engineering practice that would jeapardize the public, you are obligated, ethically and legally, to notify the board.

 

[controlnovice]

In controlnovice's case a former co-worker has asked CN to serve as a reference. At the time of their association, CN was not impressed with the applicants abilities. The applicant and CN have not been associates for some (undisclosed length) of time. It is possible that the applicant has worked erradicate his weaknesses in that time, and that CN is now unaware of the applicant's level of compentency.

One thing to note about being a reference for a PE applicant: Your reference is only for the time that you knew/worked with the person. So, if the person had become a better engineer after leaving our company's employment, it is not for me to say.

I did not dislike the person. We worked well together, and I tried to guide/mentor this person the best I could. I did not see knowledge growth in the person while here (pretty much asked others for the answers instead of developing them).

I feel it is my obligation to inform the State (actually, NCEES) that I can not recommend this person, based on my experience with them, for a PE license.

If good references are given to avoid a confrontation with the engineer or done from within the 'good ole boy network', then the PE means nothing.

I've seen posts on this site that complain how Engineers aren't given credit, or aren't thought of highly (as compared to Doctor's, Lawyers (not necessarily a bad thing!), etc... How else is the Engineer's (all of us)status going to be upheld?

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[Ashereng]

Hmmmm. You can not recommend him for licensure now, base on your experience some time ago. I guess that may also depend on how long ago it was since you two worked together.

I think the proper thing to do on the reference is to indicate when you worked with him, what you thought of his work then, and leave it at that.

You may not be in a position to assess his licensure suitability now, since you are no longer working with him.

To hold his actions then, when he was starting out, and learning, against him now is unfair. The purpose of the experience requirements is to allow one to learn, develop, grow and correct one's mistakes BEFOR applying for licensure.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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[HgTX]

"I will probably recommend to the board that he be required to take an ethics class before being allowed to sit for the PE exam"

The PE exam includes an ethics component.

But it's a take-home open-book test...

Hg

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[JStephen]

I just ran across this post- one thing I would like to point out is to read those reference letters carefully, because they're not all the same. Different states and the NCEES have different wording on them. In some states, you get the impression that it is more of a personal reference, in others, a technical reference. Where this can make a real difference is in getting references from people you have worked with, via phone & mail, but never met; or getting references from people you have known for years that you haven't actually worked with.

In regards to the person with a Mafia-type approach to engineering, I can't imagine that an ethics course would cure him. We can throw people like that in jail for 40 years and it doesn't cure them, don't expect a few hours of classroom to do it.