PE stamp liabilities 1

[TransHead]

I was talking with a colleague today and we were discussing a topic that made me think. So when you stamp a drawing, you are validating that the design represented on/in the drawing meets all engineering (structural) standards. The question that came about from the conversation is whether the PE stamp covers just the "first article" built from that stamped drawing or for every duplicate made from that stamped drawing (understanding that all quantities of duplicates are made to the specification of the stamped drawing)?

So basically, does a PE stamp certify a drawing for one time usage or does it certify the drawing period and any subsequent reproductions from a PE stamped document also stand to be considered certified?

 

[djs]

I would say it covers any item made from a stamped drawing. However it does not cover manufacturing defects.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

However - you could note it out for this ONE project only.

OR Call your lawyer....

 

[msquared48]

You can limit your stamp however you want, but the stamp will still be good only until the expiration date of your signature and stamp (based on your renewal date).

As previously alluded to, you should consult a lawyer if you have concerns regarding the wording and legality of any limitations made.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

http://mmcengineering.tripod.com

 

[TransHead]

Mike,

I think you are referring to the validation of a PE stamp itself. I was talking moreso on the document onto which a stamp is applied. Whether that stamped document can be limited as far as being considered certified. Can a document be certified for only one usage or one it is stamped it is certified for life and (in the case of a a drawing) any and all manufactured entities from that drawing are all certified no matter the quantity.

 

[SkiisAndBikes]

In the building industry I always try to have a physical address attached to the project/drawings, thus limiting the validity of my engineering stamp to only that project. Many many times the contractors will want to use the drawings at every other similar location (for free nonetheless). Each and every time that stamped drawing is used, your liability increases. I have seen engineered drawings for components circulating 10 years after they were initially stamped. That's 10 years of uncontrolled liability for what they might have initially charged a small fee (<$500)! Crazy in my opinion. I would encourage any manner of limiting the scope of your PE stamp (physical address, time period, etc....) It's your stamp so you should retain tight control over when and how it is used, you will be responsible for any future design issues.

 

[JAE]

TransHead - in the US (assuming that is where you are) the use of an engineering stamp does not "certify" or warrant that your design is correct.

What is does is simply identify the responsible engineering professional who did the work.
Read the individual state engineering laws and you will see that most of them (I'm not sure of all) are like this.

For example - in the state of Nebraska the statute reads:
[blue]The application of the licensee's seal and signature shall constitute certification that the work was done by the licensee or under the licensee's control. [/blue]
Another section reads: [blue]The purpose of requiring each architect or professional engineer to acquire a seal is to assist in identification of the design professional responsible for work performed ..."[/blue]

Note that the seal certifies only that the work was DONE by the engineer. There is no expressed certification that the work is correct.

The issue of correctness in designs/drawings only comes up when someone files either a complaint with the governing board or files a lawsuit. Then the engineer is typically held to the industry's "standard of care" (i.e. what other typical, reasonable engineers would have designed in the same situation).

Back to your original question - the use of an engineering seal for a building or bridge is usually carefully stated to be for that one project.
Subsequent uses of building/bridge plans for other projects are usually denied by contract or directly on the plans.

For a design of a "widget" or industrial item of some sort, where the design is up front and then multiple copies of that design are then produced - that creates difficulty for the engineer in controlling the added risk of multiple uses. I am in a consulting firm typically designing one-time buildings but we have had clients come in with a "product" that they want engineered and then will subsequently use our design for many future applications on other projects. Examples such as ICF forms, scaffolding or supports to aid contractors in construction, etc.

Our understanding of this is that the engineer, placing a seal on a design of a widget, is certainly exposed to higher risk as the future use, and mis-use of the product is not under the engineer's control. How you control that risk, and perhaps get paid more for that added risk is a challenge.

Each state also has various statutes of limitations where after a given period of time the engineer is free of liability.

 

[Ron]

TransHead....
Read JAE's post...then read it again. It is exactly on target!

Also, when you sign and seal an engineering document of any sort, you need to think like the lawyer who will be asking the questions when things go wrong. An example...

So when you stamp a drawing, you are validating that the design represented on/in the drawing meets all engineering (structural) standards.

In legal parlance, do you know what "all" means? It means ALL! Why on earth would you ever think you would want to "certify" that you meet ALL standards? You clearly state in your documents which standards you meet and any deviation or variance from those standards. Don't ever take on the liability to meet "all" standards that could possibly apply. You'll get crucified if there is ever a problem...even if you are not wrong!!

 

[brandonbw]

Ron brings up a good point. When we first started our company we had some pretty general language and my original partner went crazy on me for the wording.

What types of projects are you doing that the plans can be used over and over? In Civil we always have the project address and client on each page. The stamp and signature are always very close. Though I have seen people copy and paste and then scan to plot surveys to do survey work. Which seems insane to me. I can't imagine how many fake surveys were done by some companies with that method.

B+W Engineering and Design
Los Angeles Civil Engineer and Structural Engineer

http://bwengr.com

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http://bwstructuralengineer.com

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http://bwcivilengineer.com