PE Stamps

[CaptElectron]

With the understanding that all States have different requirements for “who is licensed” and “how PE stamps are used”, I have the following question:

First, in general terms, I’ll give the background. Lets say we have a mechanical engineer licensed in State A working under the direction of a civil engineer, who belongs to the same firm, that is licensed in State B. The working being done is for a project in State B. The civil engineer asks the mechanical engineer to stamp her design drawings (using State A stamp) so he can place his stamp (using State B stamp) next to hers.

When she inquires why this is necessary, she is told that the State B stamp is required because that is where the work is but, since the civil engineer is not qualified to do mechanical engineering, her stamp is required too.

Is this a legitimate practice?

Can the mechanical engineer place a State A stamp on design drawings for a project that is being carried out in State B?

Any insight to this would be much appreciated.

 

[dpc]

No, not in general. You must be licensed in the state where the project is. And you must be doing the work or be in responsible charge of the work to stamp it. So even if she was registered in State B, she could not stamp work done by someone else.

If this is on federal property, the rules are different.

Also, a few states allow another state's stamp to be used on a TEMPORARY basis if application was pending in the correct state. This is a state by state issue, and not common.

And again, just because both people work for the same company does not mean one engineer can stamp another's work. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it is basically illegal.

Hope that helps.

 

[itsmoked]

dpc; if the stamp depicts the state I do not see why a PE cannot stamp a drawing for the state they are allowed to stamp in, if the work is stamp-able in that state. The stamper is not stating anything about the wrong state. Only that the work is certified for their state.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

Keith,

No, not if I understand what you are saying. If I am a registered engineer in Missouri and the project is in Kansas, I cannot use my Missouri stamp in Kansas. It just doesn't work that way.

If that was allowed, each state wouldn't be able to charge me hundreds of dollar per year to maintain a license in each state I do design work in.

I can get a Kansas license by comity or reciprocity if I am licensed in Missouri, but I have to apply, pay the fee, and get the stamp.

Or maybe I don't understand what you said?

Dave

 

[UtilityDave]

I think DPC is correct.

If one is not licensed in a state and then stamps with another state's stamp he is essentially practicing or representing himself as a licensed Engineer in a state where he is not.

In the original question, I think the supervising Civil Engineer could stamp if the work was done under his/her responsible control. This means that the stamping Engineer was in a position to assure accuracy and will take responsibility for material errors. By placing the ME's stamp first the Civil is attemping to claim responsible charge and at the same time rely on the ME's work. This is contradictory to the responsible charge claim.

I think Itsmoked's argument is that the stamp is clear as to the state. But that relies too much on the knowledge and diligence of the person hiring and such defense would fail in most states. It probably also would breach the contract.

Right?

 

[itsmoked]

Well I can easily imagine an engineer stamping a drawing that he has gone over and has no flaws for his state. The drawing can then be used in another state for whatever reason but of course it requires a further stamping for that state.

What I am saying is how can there be any illegality for just stamping a drawing! The illegality occurs when the end user uses it in an unapproved state, not just because a person stamped it for their state.

Many general purpose engineering drawings are stamped for a particular state that they may not even be used in. They need further approval for use elsewhere.

What I'm getting at is an engineer is asked to stamp a drawing - it is not illegal in anyway - to do just that as all they are doing is certifying its quality in the state he/she is qualified to affix their stamp.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

Keith,

I see the logic in what you are saying, but it just doesn't work that way. The drawing identifies a particular project in a particular state. If you want to re-use that drawing for an identical project in another state, you could copy it onto a new drawing with a new title block, but it would have to be stamped by someone registered in that state.

It is generally illegal for an engineer to review work done by someone else and then stamp it unless he or she was in "responsible charge" of the work, such as being that engineer's supervisor.

I've turned down a lot of work that I was qualified to do because I was not registered in the proper state and there was not time to get registered in that state.

 

[itsmoked]

Interesting. Thanks.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[alehman]

I agree with dpc. My firm works all over the US and I am licensed EE in 32 states. I've never heard of the scenario posed by the OP. It is never acceptable to stamp drawings prepared by an engineer not under your responsible charge. "Responsible" meaning you have personal control over and understanding of what is being designed. By definition you cannot be in responsible charge of an engineer in a discipline for which you have no qualifications.

Many states have unique licensing qualifications. Some differences are administrative and some are technical. For example California has much different qualifications for a civil engineer than Kansas due to the different environment (primarily due to seismic concerns). Florida has unique requirements for structural engineers and architects.

 

[rbulsara]

dpc is right.

I have a bigger question, what a civil engineer is doing stamping a mechanical design? or why a mechanical engineer doing a civil design?

In case of the scenario OP susggested, only stamp that counts is the B state's stamp. The civil engineer also has to swear that he reviewed the drawings and they were produced under his suprevision. He cannot say that just because he made other guy stamp with another state A's licence, he "assumed" the work to be compliance with state B's requirements. He also will not be able to pass on his liability. In fact it could land him in more trouble of willful negligence.

The scenario only works, if it was acceptable by the AHJ in State B.

 

[CaptElectron]

Wow, great feedback everyone – thanks.

I feel like additional information is warranted, however…

In general, the State A stamp would be placed on the ME drawings to “protect” the Civil engineer as a person in responsible charge.

The project is a multidiscipline effort. The mechanical engineering would only be doing ME design tasks and the civil would only be doing CE tasks. However, the CE is the project engineer/manager and the only one with a State B stamp so he will have to stamp all drawings. Since the CE cannot do ME work, he has asked the ME to place her State A stamp on her design drawings (only) so that he can claim the ME work was done by an educated and trained professional (not some yahoo down the road).

Thanks again for the feedback!

 

[dpc]

Basically, it would NOT be acceptable to State B authorities to put a State A stamp on the drawing, regardless of the purpose, except for the limited exception mentioned previously. The mechanical engineer stamping the drawing needs to be registered in the state where the project is located. And the mechanical engineer needs to be the person who did the work.

 

[jghrist]

State B, where the construction will be done, will require that the mechanical engineer who was in responsible charge of the mechanical design work, registered in State B, seal all mechanical design drawings. If you're lucky, State B will have a provision for temporary registration, as mentioned by dpc. You can start the registration process for the mechanical engineer. If not, then construction drawing issue will have to wait until the mechanical engineer's registration in State B is approved. Preliminary drawings can be issued without the seal if they are marked "Preliminary, Not for Construction" (see State B registration rules for details).

 

[itsmoked]

I once got a 200 page catalog of high end, pre-manufactured homes. They had about 180 models. They were all pre-stamped for various states by several types of engineers. Most were stamped for more than 20 different states. These were obviously stamped prior to actually having any clue where they were actually going to be built.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[dpc]

So they have an engineer registered in each state who is willing to stamp the design drawings. It could be the same engineer in all cases.

State laws vary a lot for mobile homes and other modular construction.

 

[stevenal]

CaptElectron,

The added information does nothing to clear the CE from stamping a drawing outside his area of competence.

This fraud may go undetected, since stamps usually don't indicate areas of competence. But if it is detected, it will not be good for either engineer. Note that the ME and any other PE with knowledge has a duty to report.

 

[rbulsara]

CaptElectron:

Your last post is worriesome. You do not seem to be understaing what has been stated so far.

1. The civil engineer cannot stamp ME drawings. Period. Where he is licenensed is immaterial.

2. Project Engineer or CEO of the compnay or a janitor, it does not matter, he/she cannot be stamping "for" anyone!

3. The engineer must be licensed in the state where the project is to be built and in that particular decipline.

4. If the engineer who designed the drawings is licensed correctly, he/she need not be and cannot be "protected" by any boss, project manager or whoever.

5. Read the ethic rules of State B Licensiong authority.

 

[alehman]

Sorry CaptElectron, it just doesn't work that way.

 

[jghrist]

I once got a 200 page catalog of high end, pre-manufactured homes. They had about 180 models. They were all pre-stamped for various states by several types of engineers. Most were stamped for more than 20 different states. These were obviously stamped prior to actually having any clue where they were actually going to be built.

You may be able to seal drawings for manufactured items in the state where it is manufactured. Most shop drawings from manufacturers are not sealed because there are exemptions for manufacturers, but it would seem reasonable that a PE could seal drawings in the state of manufacture.

 

[CaptElectron]

Thanks for the postings everyone, they were very helpful.

… and I am getting it… why do think I posted the question in the first place?... because it didn’t sound right to me either!

Thanks again.