Peer review question 2

[focuseng]

I have been asked by a building owner to review a structural calculation provided by a unit owner who hired their own structural engineer to perform a renovation/modification to their unit. The review is very small. A single design issue in fact. Problem is that I have looked it over and on first and second review I can't agree with either the methodology or the calculations/conclusions. I flat out believe the calculation is 100% meaningless to the situation. The calculations are sealed by the engineer.

What is the protocol for something like this? I don't want to turn this into a pissing contest or an ethical nightmare.

______________
MAP

 

[AELLC]

It all depends on why the building owner needed the review by you, and is it a definitely life-safety issue or not.

No reason to protect the reputation of an engineer you don't know, and what he is doing is dangerous. If it is merely a case of he took a fee, produced some nonsensical calcs, and not a life safety issue, I would keep my mouth shut, none of my business.

 

[dhengr]

Focuseng:
Do the unit owner and the other engineer know you have been asked to look this over? Maybe the bldg. owner should notify the unit owner and tell him to tell his engineer that you’ll be calling to discuss the project. Start a list of code problems, engineering experience and judgement issues, std. detail or constructibility issues, etc.; reasons why the original design could be trouble, all so that you are well prepared, and have your ducks in order. Call the other engineer and explain who you are and that you have been asked by the bldg. owner to review things for his protection. Don’t start the conversation by reading off a litany of errors, pick a couple which will be hardest for him to argue about. Ask the other engineer what his logic and justification was for some of the most egregious details or conditions, and mention that these are items which will probably prevent permitting for the work. You want to win the first couple rounds, and he ill be much more amenable. Do this in a nice way, at least at first; you want to help him, and this is at the bldg. owners expense, offer simpler, cleaner solutions that will meet code, cost less, etc. And, certainly don’t broadcast the situation beyond the two of you.

 

[focuseng]

I was brought in because it was assumed it was a modification to a major structural element. I looked at it an determined it is only a decorative component not related to the main structure. Failure would not bring the building down but it is heavy and represents harm to building and occupants if failure happened.

Now - I do not (stress -do not-) know that the fix provided won't calculate out to a reasonable solution but the way it is "proven" is most wrong headed. I don't want to FIX the calcs and provide all new ones as that is not what I am hired to do. But... what is the correct response. It feels like such a stupid thing to nail someone for. The Building inspector has taken it at face value already. Did I mention the contractor already performed the work! $#*%! I didn't get enough fee for this one...

______________
MAP

 

[focuseng]

Oh everybody knows I am involved. I already reviewed the building and wrote a report giving my opinion on the situation without knowing there were "calculations". I included the risk of failure comments. My report stated, "The owners engineer should provide calcs showing blah blah blah" Next thing I know I get the calculations and terrible drawing showing the fix.

I am thinking about calling the engineer to ask some very basic questions and see where his head is at.

______________
MAP

 

[somewhatofanerd]

Post the information here including the calcs and let us decide. I have absolutely nothing better to do tomorrow so it will be like working at my old job

Really though... is it life threatening or an obvious immediate threat to someone? If not... just call the engineer on the phone. You can certainly tell the owner who hired and paid you that you do not agree with it and offer a different solution.

 

[somewhatofanerd]

Well... I see you already posted just prior not life threatening. Would be nice to look at the real situation and the calcs at this point.

 

[dhengr]

Focuseng:

I don’t know what the problem is and haven’t seen your report, so I’m kinda shootin from the hip here. But, you have to have had a good reason for what’s wrong, what the potential danger and damage might be, reasonable fixes, enough calcs. so you know you could complete them and prove your idea and disprove his. You should already have most of this to back up your report. I think you got my drift, at least at first, don’t call him as an adversary. Call him with questions, how does this work, how does this meet the code, what happens if, what if you do this, wouldn’t that improve this issue? I would still talk with the other engineer to try to understand where he’s coming from, but then tell the bldg. owner what’s wrong with the fix and calcs. and let him handle it; that is, insist on a proper fix or removal and repair.

 

[AELLC]

The big liability for you is: the construction is already complete.

Are you willing to pay for all this if the so-called engineer in question brings in another engineer that supports his nonsense calcs? Do you enjoy tangling with lawyers?

I would for the record :

1) Say the calculations by the other engineer are not clearly presented.

2) Ask the building unit owner to write a hold-harmless letter for your sake, and unless he is willing and able to pay for the re-design and re-construction, I would walk away from this situation without disturbing the hornet's nest.

3) Don't let your frustration about not getting enough fee cause you to do something that increases your liability. We have enough scourges in this world what with civil wars, human trafficking, and starvation, don't become a new case for the lawyers too.

 

[focuseng]

Thank you guys for all the great advice. I am so tempted to post the information but I am afraid it will digress into something else.. I am really trying not to make it about the problem but how to handle it.

For the record I have not been retained by the owner to Solve the problem. I am acting as the owners expert to review and advise them. The Unit owner/tenent is fully on the hook for the issue and the fix and making everything right. If I said it is bull#$!@ then the building owner would back me (I think). I really don't want to provide the fix anyway. I don't want to give an engineer a blind side either and have him call me up to the board for being a jerk. Just need help navigating this water of ethics/protocol/etc when two engineering are representing opposite sides.

The fee comment was for my stress level and PITA factor.

______________
MAP

 

[AELLC]

The problem: if you go forward with your recommendations, if it costs the tenant for the re-construct, it could escalate.

If it doesn't cost the tenant, than why should he care?

 

[GeoPaveTraffic]

Here is my two cents worth.

I would call the engineer, as others have indicated, and ask him to quickly layout his logic for the work that has been done and his calculations. If he doesn't make sense, I would say that I'm somewhat confused by his discussion and see if he offers any additonal reasons as to why he chose to approach the calculations the way he did. Then say that you are going to look at the calculations again in light of this discussion and thank him for his time. This way you have given him the chance to explain what he did and why he did it and indicated that you might not agree.

Thereafter, you should write a letter to your client stating that you have reviewed the calculations and that there are problems with the way the information is presented and some/most of the choices. Include a list of the major issues and say that for you to complete your review additional information from the unit owners engineer will be required. Keep it simple and professional.

What you do after this point depends mostly on what your client and the unit owner's engineer do. If they resubmit calculations that appear reasonable, then you are good to go. If they say, nothing is wrong with their original calculations; you probably indicate to your client that you disagree and it is their choice.

One other thing that you need to check out. What does your state's code of ethics/professional conduct say about knowledge of a deficient design produced by others? You may have a requirement to report this situation to your state board. I know that no one wants to do this, ever; but the state rules/laws may require it.

Good luck.

Mike Lambert