Pet peeve with contractors 8

[aggman]

You know, it always baffels me that contractors always think they know more about engineering than the engineer themselves. Common beliefs are....

A) The engineer always over does the design. If they call out (5) #5 bars then it probably only really needs (2) #4 bars to work.

B) Engineers love to dream up really complex methods to do things. We never consider how the contractor will have to do something.

C) The only reason their are #6 bars and larger is for skyscrapers and monster bridges. There is never a requirement for that size bar other than that.

D) If the contractor has never "seen" it done that way before than it must be wrong, even if the contractor has never installed anything like it before.

I could probably go on and on like this but it just gets on my nerves how people think we are all just idiots. I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with. It's just interesting that someone will trust their intuitive judgement without any formal training in basic force transfer and design over what someone with formal training in engineering recommends.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[archeng59]

There is no doubt that buildings cannot be constructed without contractors. but that's no excuse for contractors to assume that all engineers are idiots, to claim that engineers always over design everything and that the contractor knows more than the engineers. by virtue of the contractor being selected by the owner, does that mean the engineer's recommendations are invalid if the contractor disagrees with those recommendations? the owner selected the design team and paid for the recommendations, also.

my complaints are not with/about all contractors. I have a great working relationship with at least four contractors and we act as a team whenever they are constructing buildings on which I am the SER. but I have experiences with several other contractors who are belligerent toward engineers regardless of the engineer's experience. it happens with both small and large construction firms. not all contractors have engineers on staff. of the contractors with whom I have a good relationship, only one employs engineers on their staff but does not use those engineers for all projects.

 

[SlideRuleEra]

Having been a heavy construction contractor once-upon-a-time, could start a thread "Pet Peeve With Engineers"... but that is for another day.

We had such a problem with Contractors scaling drawings, instead of reading dimensions (or asking questions), that we added these statements to contract documents:

In the specification, "Drawings are not to be scaled"

And on the drawings themselves, "Not drawn to scale" (even when they were).

http://www.SlideRuleEra.net

 

[eyec]

good, bad, or in the middle; contractors seem to be thought of as ex-wives.

they seemed ok while they had a relationship, but once it was over - ouch!

i would suggest that both need to keep in mind that the final goal is a safe job, done on time and within budget.

all else is cause for threads like this one.

 

[HgTX]

I'd say item B in the original post, at least the second half of it, is true often enough that it's no wonder contractors make that generalization.

No, field experience won't change the calculated loads but it will make it much more likely that the engineer will leave room for forms & falsework, provide access for welding & bolting, etc.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[bjb]

aggman, I understand what you're saying. I have worked with many contractors who were interested in doing a good job and who seemed to have respect for the engineer. On the other hand, there is another group who only seem interested in cutting corners and attempting to blame the engineer for everything.

archeng59, another prescriptive requirement that doesn't work when you run the calcs is the foundation anchor bolt requirement.

 

[PSlem]

I've been on both sides of the fence and there are as many stories that go the other way. I remember a simple retaining wall where the engineer specified 50KSI piles. I asked why, since strength not needed. He said it was to minimize deflection. I mentioned E being the same and he looked at me like a contractor would.

 

[eric1037]

"Plan Stamping" is also known as "Value Engineering".

 

[jike]

Contractors see and experience designs from many different engineers. They generally are very practical and I am always interested if I can pick up a trick or two from them. I have seen alot in my 34 years of experience, but I am still open to finding a better way, if I can. I do not believe that I know everything nor am I infalliable. I am always interested in looking at others' drawings or seeing some other construction project because I may pick up another idea or two.

If a contractor tells me that that is not the way it is normally done, I will try to find out how others are doing it and re-evaluate my procedures. It may turn out that my way is better or possibly not. I will continue to learn from this process.

There are good and not so good people in both professions. Hang around the good people and you will learn alot and continue to grow. Try to ignore the people who, perhaps, don't have the complete picture.

 

[aggman]

Sorry for not posting back until now but I was out yesterday. I think I need to clarify a few things. Several of you have made mention that the contractors know how to get things done and that gives them qualifying experience, etc. I never said that contractors don't have to be consulted with and there suggestions noted. They have a lot of experience and are the ones who get the job done through thick and thin. What I said was that I don't want them telling me what size footing or beam to use because they "know" it will work. If you think its inadequate then by all means tell me, I am always open to suggestions, but don't like people with no ability to do any calculations saying my design is just wrong because they don't think it looks right!

What we all have to understand is that we are all working together to build a product. Each of us has an important role in their own aspects. If the engineers don't design properly then it will not be safe or may not work at all. If the drafters don't draw it properly then the shop can't fabricate it correctly and the installers can't make it fit up. If the shop doesn't fabricate it right then pieces will not fit up in the field. And on and on and on. Each of us has to be trained to do the job correctly and to the best of our abilities and trust that the others involved are willing to do the same.

Now I think what jike said in the last post is very accurate and is what I try to do. I have been exposed lately to a few contractors with 10 gallon ego's and mouths that will not quit. So I guess I have a little bad taste in my mouth right now. In my field I am exposed to a lot of guys with a lot of experience but no formal training in engineering. I mean at the design and field level. I can promise you that at least these people look at a design as if it works the day you put it in then it will work forever. Their is no consideration for other aspects of the design such as environmental loads or changing conditions. Also it is all intuitive from the get go. I can't tell you how many times I have seen designs with panel point eccentricites of 12" or more and a host of other bad practicies. When I question them I get "well that doesn't make any difference, or its always been done like that". I also often hear these contractors with high school educations saying "I know more about engineering than any college trained engineer will ever know!". Sorry if I find that a little hard to believe.

Zambo,
I never said design engineers are the only ones with formal training. I agree that contractors do hire engineers or are engineers and many of them are very good design engineers in there own right. I am probably more exposed to contractors without any formal training, your so called pick-up truck guy with a sign on the door. I have worked with degreed engineers on several projects and to be honest they all went really smooth. We had some issues but we could easily talk through those issues and look at both sides to get a resolution. I also agree with contractors giving input into how things should be constructed. If the contractor buy's into how something is going to be done then we will make a much better product overall and both sides feel like they are not getting screwed on the deal. The rebar deal has to do with several recent design-build projects where the contractors are not really geared up to use bigger bars. So when they got the drawings they are crying to me to change the design because they don't have a rod bender that can handle bars larger than #5. And the weight of the larger bars is harder to deal with. It's not my fault if you underestimate a job or overestimate your capabilities. If I were hired to design something do you think the owner is going to change his requirements for a project because I don't have design software to complete the job or I need to do twenty hours of research on something I wasn't planning to do? I doubt it.

 

[crossframe]

Slide Rule Era,

It's another day - I'd love to see that "Pet Peeves with Engineers" list. As several have said, Contractors often provide incredible insight as to what will make their jobs easier and the whole project better, while still satifying the "engineering." Many of the best things I've ever learned were pointed out by Contractors and by time spent on the site.

I try to never lose sight of the fact that all I'm doing is making lines on paper. Somebody else actually has to build it.

 

[HgTX]

Somewhere there was a thread along the lines of "common newbie engineer mistakes" that might do ya.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[EddyC]

Perhaps if the laws that regulate construction were revised to include things like:

a) Contractor who changes a design has personal responsibility for it, just like an engineer.

b) Contractor who changes a design must perform calculations to justify it.

Also, think about it from the owners perspective. He/she wants to have a building constructed. So he/she hires design professionals and contractors. When problems occur and things don't go as planned, they begin to blame each other rather than working together to give the owner what he/she hired them for: A properly designed & constructed building.

 

[wes616]

Hi Everyone... I love reading the posts here.... I suppose I don't really have much to contribute, since I am not in the building construction industry... but my wife is an architect, and has gone on similar rants, so I'm going to tell the forum what I tell her...

The parable of the ogre engineers

Long long ago, when the assembly line was invented there became two kinds of engineers: Those who designed the thing, and those who made the thing. Both hated each other. The ones who designed the thing always new better than the ones who made the thing. The ones who made the thing thought the ones who designed the thing were arrogant idiots with no practical experience. They would take drawings and throw them to each other, over a very high wall... and as with tall walls, it was hard for either side to hear the complaints or explinations from those on the other side.... then one day, a short man from japan (rhyme on purpose here) took a recking ball to the wall. when the dust settled, those who made the thing and those who designed the thing realized that the other was not an ugly ogre. they began to work closely together and found they could make a thing that was easier to make, cheaper to build, with more functionality in less time. And the world was good again...


I understand that the building idustry is different than manufacturing, but compromise and communication make a much more effective and functional design.

That said.. keep up the rant. It is filling my day with joy, as I read each post :-D

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

 

[archeng59]

my posts likely sounded as though I dislike all contractors. not so. but suffering with the belligerent "know-it-alls" is not fun. unfortunately there are alot of those guys. when I meet contractors and superintendants for the first time, I ask them to contact me if they need anything or if they want to discuss the drawings. there is more than one way to do things. when both sides understand that and are open minded, the project seems to go well. there are contractors and supers that I've developed a relationship with well enough to discuss options or to ask if I could have made the job better design-wise. but, some guys developed an opinion that all engineers are idiots and apparently nothing will change their mind.

 

[RHB51]

I am a structural engineer with over 32 years experience with dealing with both engineers and contractors.
My experience with contractors has been 99% good but I
really can't say that about other engineers.

It always seems to me that the engineers that gripe the most about "bad" contractors on a typical basis usually have created a lot of the problems themselves. When one
starts blaming contractors on a continuing basis it is time
to take a real serious look at the plans/specs that you
are providing. We design a lot of temporary structures
(shoring. reshoring, etc.) and over the years the quality of the drawings have become worse.

I am sure that each and every one of you have had some
bad experiences with contractors but maybe you should spend some of your energy making your own work better; we would
all be better off.

 

[rmw]

I was a field engineer for mechanical equipment, so I worked with the contractors in resolving issues with the contractor and the engineers who created the 'lines on the paper' as sliderulera said above. I saw lots of dumb things done by other engineers who had no idea of how stuff went together in the field.

When I left the field and went into design, lots of times I would spot things on drawings that wouldn't work in the field (like interference in the space needed for pulling a heat exchanger bundle) and would point it out to the designers and/or draftsperson. They often would say I never thought of that. To which I would reply you would if you had ever had to pull a bundle.

I think field experience makes a difference, but it is impossible for everyone to have it.

Now regarding contractors, I worked with some lu-lu's too.

rmw

 

[Zambo]

I think that aggman the threadstarter might have learnt something..... I hope so. He may like to consider cases such as cable stay bridge construction where contractors including VSL and Freyssinet are leading the field with R&D and consulting/design engineers are years behind.

I have worked for contractors internationally for 15 years and I have a strong respect for the work carried out by north american and european contractors.

 

[BigH]

There is little question that both sides produce good work - that both sides make mistakes. It works best when, as Wes616's fable says, both sides work together rather than finding fault. I had a friend who, one day, was being ranted on by a foundation contractor over his (geotechnical engineer) view on a foundation situation. The contractor finally said, "I've been doing this for 25 years and . . . " - my friend's mouth turned up with a little smile and said, "Well, I guess you've been doing it wrong for the 25 years." It also works the other way (as SlideRuleEra has intimated).
As this is putatively to be peeves about contractors, the one I have is when they submit materials for source approval to the engineer and the product does not meet the specifications. Example, for a hydrophillic waterstop, the contract specifications clearly say that "bentonite based waterstop is not an equivalent" - so what does the contractor submit for source approval? - a bentonite based waterstop. Or where he has to provide a geotextile to meet certain requirements and he submits a product listing but doesn't say which one he wants to use - it is sort of like - "which one will you accept?".
I'll wait until SRE starts his contractor's peeve for others.
Ciao.

 

[archeng59]

not all conflicts between engineers and contractors are the result of poor construction documents. an example: several years ago, I designed the framing for a dentist office. Load bearing wood stud walls with manufactured wood trusses. I specified DF#2 studs and utilized APA rated wood panels for shear walls. A residential framer was hired to construct the building. His experience was as a home builder, which qualified him to attempt to eliminate all of the shear panels except a single panel at each corner, which was inadequate for the size of the building. Also, he considered himself qualified to determine that specifying DF #2 for the load bearing walls was over-kill and used stud grade Northern Species, which is what he used for his homes. The framer told the owner that I was wasting the owner's money. The owner went to another engineer for a peer review/second opinion. the second engineer supported my design and the owner demanded that the framer to follow the drawings. the framer went into a tirade about his 20+ yeares of experience and how engineers are worthless. the owner fired him.

I'm not a belligerent engineer. I try to resolve issues without acting superior to anyone. but sometimes, the contractor is hard to work with.

 

[Ingy]

As a general contractor and a registered engineering I have read this thread with interest. I could contribute quite a bit to the list of frustrations with the quality of plans and specs we are getting but have also witnessed plenty of "self-inflicted" wounds. My personal opinion as to the source of many conflicts is that most owners simply are not knowedgeable enough to understand that money spent in the design phase gets you a lot more than during the construction phase.

I am curious though, many of the complaints seem to revolve around residential contractors and commercial building contractors. Both of these fields are usually very light on staff engineers. However, in the heavy civil/structural construction world there generally are a lot more of us PE's on staff. At my company all but one project manager is a PE and the entire executive management staff is licensed. Does anyone notice a difference in dealing with heavy civil/structural contractors? Does the engineering background help a little or a lot?

Also, do you feel that owners in the public works arena are willing to fully compensate for a complete design or do they push the hours down to what they think should be enough?