Pet peeve with contractors 8

[aggman]

You know, it always baffels me that contractors always think they know more about engineering than the engineer themselves. Common beliefs are....

A) The engineer always over does the design. If they call out (5) #5 bars then it probably only really needs (2) #4 bars to work.

B) Engineers love to dream up really complex methods to do things. We never consider how the contractor will have to do something.

C) The only reason their are #6 bars and larger is for skyscrapers and monster bridges. There is never a requirement for that size bar other than that.

D) If the contractor has never "seen" it done that way before than it must be wrong, even if the contractor has never installed anything like it before.

I could probably go on and on like this but it just gets on my nerves how people think we are all just idiots. I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with. It's just interesting that someone will trust their intuitive judgement without any formal training in basic force transfer and design over what someone with formal training in engineering recommends.

Any thoughts on this?

 

[archeng59]

Ingy, I see contractors using engineers on the really big commercial projects. the smaller projects generally don't have an engineer.

 

[jike]

I agree with Ingy. Most of the problems we see are with the smaller wood frame projects where a contractor that is used to doing resential projects tries to cross over into the commercial market and doesn't understand that there is a different code for dealing with commercial wood frame projects.

It is often enjoyable working on larger projects with larger contractors that have engineers on staff. Everyone seems to be working toward the same goal.

 

[DRC1]

You guys really need to get out of the office more. I have ben in design and construction for a while. I rarely see the designers on the site excpept for maybe a quick 20 min site tour once durring the project.
I have learned more from riggers and old time superintendents than I have from any design seminars. They have seen not only seen what works but what does not work. Most engineers have never witnessed an actual failure. Most assume failure is the inability of a computation to show an allowable strees level. Most do not associate it with something crashing down.
The guys in the field may not be able to develop designs to the extent you can, but most have a good understanding of what works and why. Gentle words are not often found on a construction site. And criticism from these guys can be rough and humbling, however you can truely learn how what you are designing is built and your work will improve tremendously.
Are there know it all contractors who don't know what they are talking about - Of course, just as there are as many designers with the same attitude. These contractors should be held to the terms of thier contracts. It is unfair to the rest of us who did not get the job and bid it correctly. But most of the contractors are trying to do the work the best they can and when suggestions are made it is because what their experience tells them.
As a final note, which ties into the orginal note, most plans do not have good constructibility details and many times costruction loadings will be greater than in service loads. Often only the inservice loads are calculated.
So I will close as I opened, You guys really need to get out of the office more.

 

[pba]

If you are in the consulting business, you will have a list of peeves against contractors. If you are a contractor you will have a list of peeves against consultants. In all probability both lists are valid.

I'm in consulting and usually form the interface to the contractor. I don't have many experiences of contractors directly questioning my design. The approach is usually more subtle. They question the buildability or raise construction programme constraints. It is usually very clear when a contractor is not happy with my brilliant, economic and simple solutions!

I've learnt from experience that while there are as many idiots in contracting as in any other walk of life, few of them are prepared to waste their own time to battle with me over adequate designs. So if the contractor has a problem, it is either a lack of understanding on their part or a poor design on mine. The solution to both is the same - TALK TO EACH OTHER. This is also best done face to face as telephones create a psychological barrier (never ever use email for dispute resolution).

Most people (including contractors) respond well to having the problem and solution explained. Be prepared to meet the contractor part way. There are very few procedures which con only be done in one way.

Finally, contractors like to do things using tried and tested techniques. This gives cost and programme certainty to the contractor. Know your contractors - know how they usually work and adopt those techniques in your design assumptions.