pipe routing - I'm a rookie (bio-pharm) 1

[pakoda123]

I'm right out of engineering college and have been challenged with the task of routing interconnecting piping for a pharmaceutical grade plant (module design of skids).
Armed with Quickpen's Pipedesigner 3D and P&ID's, I have to come up with a complete plant piping within weeks.
I've picked up a thing or two from this forum, brainstorming within my team and general reading. I have to admit though, I have more questions than answers. To give you an example of some of the basic questions I had/have were -

*Should I run N-S piping at a set elevation and E-W piping at another elevation (say 24" lower)
* Now, I have SS piping that starts in the N-S direction (pipe rack) and then runs in the E-W direction (to a tank, say) . If the N-S AND the E-W piping is sloped at 1/8" per foot why don't they make an elbow at 89.4 degrees or 90.6 degrees (and other odd angles)... I thought about that one for days and came up with the solution that the piping is going to have to 'flex' and instead of pre-fabricating the piece, I'll have to leave a spool piece or two for a field fit based on the 'give' of this BP fitting.

As you can see, all my questions are basic-basic with their solutions (basic logic) being more basic. I'd appreciate any thumb rules you can share with me and also point me in the right direction as far as resources go (seminars, books, classes, etc.). It seems I'm trying to rediscover the 'art' of piping, routing, plant layout when someone else has probably thought through it over the years already.
So even though the rule says don't type in this as your descriptive, I'm going to anyways...HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLP !!!!

Thanks in advance for your time and help,

Ragz

 

[butelja]

A good reference that I have used is:

Piping Design for Process Plants
Harold F. Rase James R. Holmes (Illustrator)

Format: Hardcover, 295pp.
ISBN: 0894644246
Publisher: Krieger Publishing Company
Pub. Date: January 1990

 

[UtilityLouie]

Hi,

The reason they do not make elbows in odd degrees is because any small dimensional differences at piping fittings can be made up with weld material. If there is a double elbow where you change directions and elevation, you can get the proper slope with normal weld gaps.

I agree with your idea about running pipes at different elevations with different cardinal directions. This definitely makes sense for any future additions.

I have found an older book "Grinnell Piping Design", the "Piping Design Handbook" also is a good reference. One thing that I have noticed is that books help some, but the biggest help is recognizing good ideas when you see them and then remembering them for your own designs. When you read a book you are just reading someones opinion.

 

[ArtR]

Equipment Design Handbook for Refineries and Chemical Plants, Volume 2 has a good chapter on piping design, routing, stress analysis, etc.

Author is Frank L Evans, Jr.

Published by Gulf Publishing Company, Houson, but their book division was taken over by Butterworths, and Amazon.com lists it as out of print.

 

[BREEN]

Hello,

On the subject of books, I believe that the best available contemporary piping design book is "Practical Guide to ASME B31.3 Process Piping", by G.E. Woods and R.B. Baguley (published by CASTI Publishing Company, 14820 29th Street Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, T5Y 2B1, Canada, Telephone (403) 478-1208, Fax (403) 473-3359 ). Another useful book(s) (albeit, now out of print) is "Introduction to Pipe Stress Analysis " (2 volumes) by Sam Kannappan, 1992, (ISBN 0 89464 706 7), Krieger Publishing Company, Malabar, Florida, 32950. Mr. Kannappan is also a B31.3 Code Committee member. The Kannappan book shows pipe stress analysis approaches as they are done today with the contemporary computer programs. Another book, Piping and Pipe Support Systems, by P.R. Smith and T.J. Van Laan was published by McGraw Hill. I recommend finding a copy in a library and looking it over before you buy. A good ("must have&quot but rather pricey reference book is the Piping Handbook, 6th edition, edited by M. L. Nayyar and published by McGraw Hill ,1992, IBSN 0 07 046881 8, (this book is an update of a classic reference which was originally written by R.C. King and S. Crocker; if you could find an old 5th edition of this handbook (on the internet as a used book) you would find excellent writing on pipe stress analysis by John Brock, including some wonderful historical information. One other standard reference (it does not address stress analysis but is a good reference for design) that is found in nearly all piping design firms is "The Piping Guide" by D.R. Sherwood and D.J. Whistance - ISBN 0-914-08219-1 (Syentek, PO Box 26588, San Francisco, California 94126). The "Piping Guide" is commonly used is community colleges for teaching layout and good practice. Piping Design for Process Plants, by H. F. Rase (Library of Congress Card Number 63-17483) is a good practical guide but not very deep in theory or technical background. It is still available through several book sellers (e.g., AMAZON.COM). The Seventh Edition of the Grinnell Book, Piping Design and Engineering, has recently been released and can be had by contacting your Grinnell representative ( you will pay either $100.00 or nothing for the book depending upon your relationship with your Grinnell Rep.). This book is useful but by no means as technical as the "Kellogg Book" Also, the methods shown for hanger sizing are not as accurate as a computer model. The "Kellogg Book" - "Design of Piping Systems" is, of course, out of print. The last issue was the "revised Second Edition" which was published after 1977 (ISBN 0 471 46795 2, Library of Congress Card Number 56-5573). About 50 percent of the book is obsolete and of only historical interest to the practical piping Engineer. The other 50 percent of the book is useful even today and provides good background information. I have seen the book listed on at least one used technical books site but I cannot remember where I saw it. It should be out there as a used technical book because a lot of them were sold. "Process Plant Layout and Piping Design", by Ed Bausbacher and Roger Hunt (IBSN 0 7913 0543 5 ), originally by Auerbach Publishers )it might be published somewhere else now), 1990, might be useful to you but, because it is pricey, I recommend finding a copy in a library and looking it over before you buy. I have seen some advertising for seminars of between 3 and 5 days duration which are done by Mr. Ed Bausbacher (who is the author of the book "Process Plant Layout and Design&quot.

You may want to try Brown Book Store in Houston Texas for some of these books(713-652-3937,

http://www.brownbookshop.com,

orders@brownbookshop.com). Brown Book Store sometimes has "out of print" books. Other sites to visit:

http://www.pipingdesign.com,

and

http://www.pipingnews.com.

There are special books covering special topics such as underground piping, plastic piping, large diameter piping and pentstocks, etc. These are specialized and if you need references to these come back to this forum for direction.

Every year the Pressure Vessel and Piping (PVP)Division of ASME has a conference which produces about 100 good papers (about 40 percent piping subjects) and these papers are gathered into publications which are offered by ASME. You could write to ASME and get on their mailing list for publications.

Previous comments warn that what you read may be someone's opinion. True enough but it also may be current industry practice OR MAY BE THE RULES OF A CODE OR STANDARD. Take time to find out what Code or Standard applies to your systems and learn those C & S as well as you can. Piping design is very much a function of Codes, so learn them.

Best regards, John.

 

[uncleal]

If your sloping this piping then I assume it is drain piping requiring the use of gravity (i.e. non-pressurized piping). If your running the N-S and E-W piping in the same elevation then 45 deg elbows and "Y's" are better suited for these types of gravity assisted flows than 90 deg elbows and tees. There is usually enough slop in the joints to cock the pipe as in cast iron soil pipe in the hub or socket giving you your slope. There are piping codes (ANSI, ASTM, etc.) that you should review to determine the maximum amount you can cock these joints based on the piping material and joining/welding procedures.

ASTM A74 and A888 cover cast iron soil piping....there is also Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute (CISPI).

 

[pakoda123]

I thank you all kindly for your responses and many references. I have managed to acquire some of these books and am working on the others.

I still come back to you with a question... I am looking for guidance in particular to the sanitary industry - pharmaceutical or food and dairy grade piping (key vendors I've worked with - Tri-Clover, Saunders, Quickpen's PipeDesigner3D, Bran+Luebbe, etc.)

Any refereces or even tips or your latest views on the industry/field would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Ragz

 

[023]

" pipng engineering and design" by roger hunt is a very good book for begineers for plant layout.