Pipe Stress Analysis Training 12

[cingold]

Does anyone know of some good pipe stress training courses? I'm especially interested in the dynamic analysis (water hammer, earthquake, wind/wave, etc.).

I'm hoping to get approval from my company for the CAESAR II dynamics course, and I've purchased L.C. Peng's book on pipe stress (which may mean that I have to relearn differential equations). But I was wondering if there are any other training courses out there as well. Maybe some more tuned towards the theories and applications behind what CAESAR calculates.

Any advice is appreciated!

Thanks,

cingold

 

[DSB123]

Sounds like we have another 6 weeks on a Pipe Stress Training Course and whoopee we have another fully fledged Pipe Stress Engineer Nominee!!-Not!!!!

To be a reasonable Pipe Stress Engineer takes years of mentoring by a proper "Pipe Stress Engineer". It's not just a case of learning the software and whoopee-doodle you become a Pipe Stress Engineers overnight. We have too many of these guys in the industry at the moment. Get yourself alongside a good mentor is my advice.

 

[cingold]

DSB123,

I guess I did say "any advice is appreciated." That was my mistake...although this hardly qualifies as advice.

I didn't realize that seeking training meant that I was simply going to plug information into CAESAR II and print reports.

How do you know that I'm not already working under an experienced Pipe Stress Engineer, and this is my attempt to take an extra step to further my own knowledge?

If you don't know of any training courses, that's fine, but your trolling sarcasm is completely unnecessary.

 

[DSB123]

cingold,
It appears that I may have hit a raw nerve here. If that's the case then that was not my intent. It is just that there are a vast number of people out there whom have been on the course and then beleive they are the finished article. That is not the case and although these courses are fine in giving you the basics of software usage it does not make a "Pipe Stress Engineer". If you are working under an experienced Pipe Stress Engineer, which I very much doubt, then gain as much knowledge from him as you get but question why? always. Appologies if you beleive my advise was sarcasm but I did give you the best piece of advise out there "get a good mentor".

 

[cingold]

Sorry for replying so harshly. I'm used to another "engineering" forum that's been overwhelmed with trolls in the last few years and I guess I projected that onto this one.

I have been trying to find an experienced stress engineer to work under for years, but I've realized that my circumstances dictate that I will need to learn on my own (which can also be a great opportunity). As it is, I know some engineers that I can question, but I doubt I will ever work directly under one.

I certainly don't want to be the next engineer that made it through a 1 week software course and calls himself a pipe stress engineer. But with not much guidance around me, I must turn to my own research.

As I mentioned in my original post, I don't want just a software course. It's great to learn the software, but it my experience it's easier to find advice for using the software than it is for finding literature on the theory behind the software's calculations.

If you know of any other training courses, please let me know. My company is willing to put me through some courses, so I will take any chance I can get to learn something.

 

[cingold]

DSB123,

This is off topic, but if you really want to educate a young, inexperienced engineer maybe you could take a shot at my question in thread775-361875

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=361875

(I hope I linked those properly)

No one else has replied, and when I ask people at my company, I get contradictory answers. No one has been able to produce any type of literature though that would cover this topic. I'm not good at just taking someone's word on these issues.

 

[pennpiper]

cingold
If you are interested in an on-line Stress Training program go here:

http://www.iniped.com/agenda/132-2014-04-28-pipe-stress-and-flexibility-i.html

Good Luck!

prognosis: Lead or Lag

 

[XL83NL]

offtopic.
@pennpiper; do u know if those iniped courses are any good?

 

[LSThill]

[PDF] GOOD REFERENCE BOOK: introduction-to-pipe-stress-analysis-
Sam Kannappan, P.E. - WordPress.com
pipestress.files.wordpress.com/.../introduction-to-pipe-stress-analysis-sam...‎
Introduction to pipe Stress analysis. ... another book entitled Advanced Pipe Stress Analysis by the same author ...
PRESSURE PIPING SYSTEMS
Method of Calculation

 

[pennpiper]

XL83NL
Regarding your question:
"Do you know if those InIPED courses are any good?"

I have asked Dr. Javier Blasco of InIPED for some input and got this.

"So far, we have organized 8 editions (Classes) of the Pipe Stress l (one of them as in-company course for Bechtel London) and we are conducting now the first edition of Pipe Stress II.
These courses have an average of 8 participants per edition. They have all completed the course."

I have requested some student feedback.



prognosis: Lead or Lag

 

[XL83NL]

Pennpiper, thanks for the reply.

 

[pennpiper]

cingold,
Here is something else that may be helpful to your career goal.
______________________________________

What does a Pipe Stress Engineer need to know?
By: James O. Pennock

The term “Pipe Stress Engineer” as used in this document refers to that person responsible for insuring that the pipe routing done by the piping layout designer is consistent with the allowable's in the applicable piping Codes. This includes; the thermal forces and the live and dead loads the piping system imposes on equipment, equipment nozzles and structures. The Pipe Stress Engineer is also responsible for the selecting and specifying stress related products including various types of Expansion Joints, Constant Support Spring Hangers and Snubbers or Struts.

What does the Pipe Stress Engineer need to know? Pipe Stress Engineering is more than just knowing how to turn on the Analysis software in the computer, how to find the menus and the difference between pass and fail. So, appropriately, what else does the Pipe Stress Engineer need to know about piping?

Here is a list of the most basic of things that a good Pipe Stress Engineer should know. Thinking about every one of these items should become as natural as breathing for a good Pipe Stress Engineer.

• Piping Codes – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know about the applicable Piping Codes for the different types of Projects and have access to the most up-to-date copy so the proper data is used and proper decisions can be made for the calculations and the good of the project.


• Pipe, Fittings, Flanges and Valves – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know and understand the broad spectrum of items that make up the “vocabulary” of the piping language. This includes the many types of fittings, the many different schedules, the wide variety of common piping materials, the flange class ratings and the types of the different valve designs.

• Relationship of other Engineering groups – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know and understand the relationship, activities and contribution of all the other engineering and design groups on the project. These include: Process, Civil, Structural, Mechanical Equipment, Vessels & Tanks and Instruments/Control Systems. These groups have a responsibility for contributing to Piping’s success just as the effort of the Pipe Stress Engineer also has a responsibility for contributing to their success.

• Piping Execution – All Pipe Stress Engineers must understand how pipe stress progress is linked to P&IDs, Plot Plans, equipment vendor drawings, instrument vendor drawings and structural support design in order to understand areas where the Project may be impacted.

• Process Variables – All Pipe Stress Engineers must know and understand the four basic process variables: pressure, temperature, flow and level, and the effect these have on a piping system.

• Process Plant Equipment – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know and understand the different types of equipment. They also need to know and understand the pipe stress related issues that effect each type of equipment.

• Equipment Operation and Internals – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand the equipment process function and the equipment internals in order to give proper consideration to the effect of piping connected to and reacting on the various nozzles/connections.

• Equipment piping – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know the right and the wrong way to pipe up (connect pipe to) different kinds of equipment and for maintenance/disassembly space requirements. This includes pumps, compressors, exchangers, filters or any special equipment to be used on a specific project.

• Allowable pipe spans – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to know and understand the span capabilities of pipe in the different schedules for a wide variety of common piping materials. When a new project introduces a new material with severely reduced span capabilities; supplemental training may be required.

• Expansion of pipe – All Pipe Stress Engineers needs to understand that they should treat a piping system as though it is alive. It has a temperature and that temperature causes it to grow and move. That growth and movement must be allowed for and incorporated in the overall design. Not just of that specific line but for all other lines close by. The process of expansion in a pipe or group of pipes will also exert frictional forces or anchor forces on the pipe supports they come in contact with.

• Routing for flexibility – All Pipe Stress Engineers must understand that the piping layout designer has routed the pipe for flexibility and support. Routing for flexibility can normally be achieved through the most natural routing of the pipeline from its origin to its terminus. Routing for flexibility means (a) do not run a pipe in a straight line from origin to terminus and (b) building flexibility into the pipe routing is far cheaper and more reliable than expansion joints.

• Weight and loads (live loads and dead loads) – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to be able to calculate and analyze the effects of weight and loading. They need to know and understand that everything has a weight. They need to be able recognize when there is going to be a concentrated load. They need to have access to basic weight tables for all the standard pipe schedules, pipe fittings, flanges, valves for steel pipe. They also need to have the weight tables for other materials or a table of correction factors for these other materials vs. carbon steel. They need to be able to recognize when downward expansion in a piping system is present and is adding live loads to a support or equipment nozzle.

• Standards and Specifications – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand the content and application of the client and engineering company Standards and Specifications used on the project. In particular the Pipe Stress Engineer must have intimate knowledge of the primary Standards and Specifications he/she will use; these being the Misc. (or Secondary) Pipe Support Standards and Piping Material Line Class Specifications.

• Vessel piping – All Pipe Stress Engineers also need to understand about the connecting, supporting and guiding of piping attached to vessels (horizontal or vertical) and tanks. They need to know that nozzle loading is important and does have limitations.

• Rack piping – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand that there is a logical approach to the placement of piping in (or on) a pipe rack and the setting of rack elevations. It does not matter how wide or how high the rack or what kind of plant, the logic still applies. Starting from one or both outside edges the largest and hottest lines are sequenced in such a manner that allows for the nesting of any required expansion loops. Another good guideline is; Process lines on the lower deck(s) and Utility Lines on the upper deck(s). The spacing of the lines must also allow for the bowing effect at the loops caused by the expansion. One rule of thumb for setting the distance between piping levels is three times the largest pipe size.

• Expansion loops – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand and be able to use simple rules, tools and methods for checking loops in rack piping. This should include the most common sizes, schedules and materials. They also need to be able to calculate forces of individual line anchors and the combined forces of all lines at a specific support.

• Cold spring/Pre-spring – All Pipe Stress Engineers should understand the basics rules of cold spring and pre-spring. They need to understand what each one is along with when to and when not to use each.

• Design production methods – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to be able to read of the various types of piping documents (manual or CAD sketches, layouts, detail piping plans, isometrics, etc). Every Pipe Stress Engineer must also be able to go to the field or sit in front of a client and make proper, intelligent, and understandable pipe stress decisions. They must also be able to produce detailed final analysis packages. Today, Pipe Stress Engineers also need to know (or be able to learn) a wide range of electronic 2D or 3D design tools.

• Heat Tracing – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand the effect of process heat conservation, know the different methods (Jacketing, Tracer Tubing or Electric), Tracer commodity (Steam, Oil, Hot Water, etc.) and Tracer system requirements and be able to consider the heat tracing in the analysis process.

• Deliverables – All Pipe Stress Engineers need to understand the purposes of each of the Pipe Stress deliverables, such as Specifications, Data Sheets, and System for individual line analysis packages, Pipe Sress Logs, Vendor Drawings (Expansion Joint, Spring Hangers and Struts).

• Stress Sketch Content – All Pipe Stress Engineers must understand how to present their comments and instructions. Stress Sketches become a part of the Legal Records for the Project. Therefore all notes and comments on Stress Sketches must be well thought out and clearly written in order to clearly communicate the required and agreed to changes to the design.

• Economics – All Pipe Stress Engineers must be aware of economics. Adding Expansion Joints at the expense of increased maintenance may not be the most cost effective solution to a perceived stress problem.

Any person that has this type of training, this type of knowledge and then consistently applies it is indeed a Pipe Stress Engineer. He or she will also be a more valuable asset to their company and to themselves in the market place. On the other hand anyone who does not know or does not apply the knowledge about these issues while doing piping work not making a proper cost effective contribution to the Project, the Company or to their own career.



James O. Pennock has more than forty-five years in the process plant design profession. He has been involved in home office engineering and design, pipe fab shop engineering and job site assignments on refinery, chemical, petrochemical, power and other projects. His experience ranges from entry level designer to engineering manager. Much of this was with Fluor. He is also the author of the book "Piping Engineering Leadership for Process Plant Projects." He is now retired, living in Florida, USA and does only occasional consulting work. Mr. Pennock can be contacted via E-Mail at jopennock@netscape.net.



prognosis: Lead or Lag

 

[DSB123]

pennpiper,
Good list of the requirements of a Pipe Stress Engineer. Unfortunately the Company I am working at , on the Mechanical side, does not understand these requirements even though I keep commenting on the requirements. In particular what the Head Piping/Stress guy fails to understand is the requirements for a Stress Report. The Stress Reports they provide are totally unsuitable for any third party to review or for other departments/contractors to use as a basis for their design. Here is what they do not have in their report:

1. No dimensioned Stress Isometric identifying the Node points. Just a plot from the software.
2. No maximum displacements of the pipework (such that other design can accommodate the displacements)
3. No input echo of the data used (such that a third party can review)

There are other omissions in the Reports such as where external loadings are applied and how.

So even "world Leaders" do not know the requirements.

 

[curtis2004]

pennpiper,

You sound like talking about me.

I have worked as a mechanical engineer for about 20 years in number of places. We have done numerous small and big projects with piping installation and modification. Working in projects for clients in different industries and in different mechanical engineering roles I have gained lots of knowledge and experience.

About 10 years ago, I was introduced to Piping Stress Analysis, and since then I has been analysing piping flexibility for number of projects I have worked for, although piping stress was always small part of my involvement in projects.

Through many years and different kind of projects I have gain so much knowledge that our company started specializing in investigations of piping system and mechanical equipment. When our clients have reliability and maintenance problems they ask us to investigate and very often we fix their issues. Solutions to some of these issues became apparent only after closer look into piping flexibility using piping stress software.

I have noticed that I love working in "piping stress" projects and would like to work more on piping stress issues. Usually as you may know these positions are at bigger EPCM companies as a pipe stress engineer. However, every time I apply to these jobs I have been rejected, because of "lack of piping stress engineer position in my resume".

Although people are calling our company when big guys from EPCM company screw up and we fix them, it is considered that I do not have "Piping Stress Engineer" experience and I have only "Mechanical Engineer" work experience. I do not want to lie and change all my previous positions from "Mechanical Engineer" to "Piping Stress Engineer".

Can anyone make suggestion how to break this vicious cycle?

 

[DSB123]

curtis 2004,
Not sure where you are based but it may be that the Existing Stress guys are "scared" of letting a newcomer into the fold. For example this is the situation in the North Sea area. The existing Stress guys all know each other and are very protective of letting any newcomer into their midst. There is a sort of cartel there. Mostly it is because the stress guys there are not of a good quality and do not want a newcomer to arrive and ruffles their feathers.

 

[curtis2004]

Dear DSB123,

I do not think that's the case. I am not planning to ruffle feathers. In fact when I meet with hiring managers, I always have higher chances to get hired, even if I do not have "correct" resume. At least, in last 5 years every job interview with hiring manager ended with a formal job offer.

I'm trying to migrate toward stress engineering for last couple of years, but without success. I think, main issue here is HR has just description of position, but do not have a clue who they are looking for. I'm afraid my application turned down based on premise that I do not have "stress engineer" position in my previous work. Although I might possess skills and my previous experience relevant to stress engineer responsibilities.

In other words if HR doesn't see "stress engineer" in your previous position he or she just sends your resume to recycle box. I do not blame them. Why would they bother and waste their precious time when they can do more productive things like surf internet, update facebook status, or send "likes" to virtual friends and connections, and finally discuss with team members why it is so difficult to find freaking Stress Engineers nowadays. ;-)

 

[DSB123]

curtis2004,
I was not having a go at you. I agree with you but it is difficult when the existing guys are all in a "clique" and do not want newcomers in their midst. As far as HR people are concerned I agree - they are useless. I keep getting job positions for Electrical Engineers or Instrument Engineers. Sick of replying asking where the hell does it say I have Electrical or Instrumentation experience on my CV. Problem is these HR people have not got a clue as regards what engineering people do or what type of experience to look for when matching people to positions.

 

[kacarrol]

I don't have any experience with the courses (and I don't know where you are located) but the University of Calgary has a pipeline engineering center with graduate programs in stress analysis:

http://schulich.ucalgary.ca/PEC/node/34