Piping flow analysis software

[napster385]

What would be the recommended software to use to analyze a piping network in determining pressure drop and could able to recommend pump size. I understand that there are certain software like AFT Fathom, Pipe FLO, Fluid Flow, etc. But what would the best based on your experiences. Thanks!

 

[pa5tabear]

I'm also interested in this. Waiting for an answer.

 

[BigInch]

EPAnet, if water. You can download that for free. AFTflow, for small piping systems. Pipeline Studio, or Stoner Pipeline Simulator for pipeline linear and network transient analysis and simulation. Pipeline Studio is limited to 250 nodes. Stoner has essentially no node limit. Best is Stoner and Pipeline Studio, but they are big ticket items and best is a relative term. Look for value in buying only what you need to do.

Independent events are seldomly independent.

 

[MJCronin]

My vote is for AFT Fathom for incompressible fluid flow analysis and the AFT related products.

The input and output is easy to transform into calculations of record.

It cannot perform waterhammer/transient analysis, but rarely is this needed. and at $4000 it offers good value.

http://www.aft.com/products/fathom

 

[zdas04]

For gas that never gets much below 145 psig, most of the commercial products do an OK job. They all have quirks (e.g., several versions of PipeFlow had a built in bias that forced flow to go from low numbered nodes to higher numbered nodes and if you messed up on your node numbering you got results that did not match measured values, another wouldn't allow you to input a compressor suction, just discharge and available horsepower). Any model you purchase needs to be verified on an existing line prior to using it to predict a new network or an extension to a network.

For low pressures I use MNET from the now defunct SSI. I probably have the last functioning security device in the world for that software. It is so old that it won't run on a 64 bit operating system so I keep a 16 bit machine around for models. I've tested 40 current-generation programs at low pressures and have not found one that can handle my test cases (i.e., I calibrate the model to match a set of measured parameters in a pipe network, then input another set of measured parameters that happened to reverse the flow in one of the trunks, none of them will reverse the flow in that line and consequently the average wellhead pressure is more than 25% from the actual volume-weighted average). Stoner is the current state of the art, but it won't reverse the flow in that line at 25 psig off-system delivery pressure either.

The two big names I run into at a lot of my clients are PipeFlow and Gap (usually linked with the wellbore simulator "Prosper" and the reservoir simulator "MBAL"). I've found PipeFlow to crash in very unpleasant ways with complex networks (e.g., much above 200 nodes and it can crash in a way the corrupts your input file and you either have to fall back to a backup or start over, I create a new backup before every time I hit "calculate"). Gap is pretty expensive and I've had a really hard time calibrating models in it. It seems that small changes make a big difference, but big changes make no difference. It can be frustrating.

If the lowest pressure you anticipate is above probably 100 psig, then I've had pretty good results from Schlumberger's PIPESIM. It is pretty intuitive and most of the obvious things that limit other programs are not problems with it. If it has a major bust, I haven't found it yet. For pressures less than that I'm still looking for something that will replace my MNET.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[amata42]

I'm made a list of all the software programs I found... Some are from Internet Search, other are from from other Forums on Eng-Tips.com. Here is the list:

Pipe Flow Expert

AFT Fathom + AFT Arrow

FluidFlow3
- Liquid Calculations
- Gas Calculations

PIPE-FLO, by EngineeredSoftware, Inc

FlowMaster V7

AutoPlant 3D (lowest reputation)

PDS or PDMS

CADWorkx (COADE?)

Ceaser II

Plant4D by CEA

EPLANT by RELSOFT

ACPlant

AutoPIPE

3Dpipemate (AutoCAD app)

CAE Pipe

ROHR2

Pipeline Studio

Stoner Pipeline Simulator

> It's hard to go through all of them and narrow them down to the best ones for you. I am going through them myself.

What I would like to ask (other Engineers reading this post) is out of these 18 programs, which can I "weed out"? OR out of these 18 programs, which are the top 5 programs? I appreciate all feedback.

NOTE: @ David Simpson (zdas04) : I did not find any software program called "GAP" on the internet. (did a quick search).
ALSO: I'm assuming when you say PipeFlow that you mean "Pipe Flow Expert"... correct?

 

[zdas04]

Gap comes from Petroleum Experts.

PipeFlo (sorry about the misspelling) comes from Engineered Products

CadWorx is a really cool program to DRAW piping (used to be from COADE, now it is part of Intergraf), not so much to model the flow (I think AutoPipe is the same). Caesar II is a stress program.

There are probably 50-60 viable programs your internet search failed to find. Some are pretty good. Some are mostly crap.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[XL83NL]

AutoPIPE is pipe stress analysis and has 0 to do with pipe flow.
I think the same counts for CAEPipe and RoHR2.

amata's list is Google-work, i.e. not verified.

 

[LittleInch]

The top 5 and bottom 2 of your list plus PIPESIM. Whatever you choose, you need to do some training or find someone familiar with each of the programs as they all work differently and are sensitive to inputs. Just using the default values can give you wildly varying data outputs, especially when using different correlations which you need to know which is the best one to use. Anyone can buy a Ferrari if you have enough money, but only with skill and training can you beat a racing driver driving a Mini, and you'll probably crash on the second bend.... Knowing the inputs required is far more important than the software you use.

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[KLee777]

I also recommend AFT Fathom for static hydraulic analyses. For transient, AFT Impulse gets my vote. I used both extensively years ago. I recommend that if you decide on this software, you should attend their training courses held at their HQ in Colorado. Excellent course and a fun trip to boot.

 

[napster385]

Thanks for your replies. Will training be necessary to use AFT Fathom? Is there any training available in Southeast Asia?

 

[BigInch]

Stanier is in Australia. He uses AFT.

Independent events are seldomly independent.

 

[zdas04]

It has gotten to the point that any training that is available in Houston, Calgary, London, or Aberdeen is also available in Singapore, Brisbane, and KL. Maybe not as often, but definitely available. I get 5-6 invitations a month to teach in one or more of those places, but so far our expectations of a "fair price" for my time have not matched. I have noticed that the offers have been moving steadily upwards this year so maybe next year.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.
The plural of anecdote is not "data"

 

[KernOily]

Coming in late on this. I use Pipephase for most stuff. It's expensive BUT it's the only program that reasonably handles two-phase steam flow with anything approaching accuracy (required for oilfield TEOR steam injection and also geothermal) for phase split prediction. If it's a simple line or simple network I just have a little spreadsheet that uses the D-W eqn for incompressible, and compressible as long as dP is not more than about 10% of inlet pressure.

You didn't say what capabilities you need. If you need heat transfer, composition, two-phase flow, liquid-vapor phase prediction, stuff like that then you need one of the big guns like Pipephase or GAP. If you are only dealing with cold water or similar then PIPEFLO or PIPESIM or AFT are good.