Poorly paid, exploited, or typical? 11

[Pace82]

I work of a small manufacturer of medical equipment such as power wheelchairs and hospital beds. This is my first position out of school (I graduated with a BSME in 2006). When I started I was offered a low wage ($18 hour) and told if everything worked out that would go up soon (this was told to me by my current supervisor, not the owner of the company, who has no authority to give me a raise). Six years later, Im being paid the same wage as when I started. Which, adjusting for inflation may be the equivalent of nearly a 9% pay cut. Im now going on 30 and living with my parents because my alternative is living alone in a crappy apartment paycheck to paycheck (yes, Ive ran the numbers for living in a cheap for the area 1 bedroom apartment and I would be lucky to save even $100 in a month and would probably be spending more than I make most months). As nice as it would be to simply ask for a raise, the owner of the company has historically given the impression (whether or true or not) that the company is just getting by. From talking to co-workers, it sounds like no one ever gets raises. The only story I have been told of an employee getting a raise (many many years ago), the employee ended up having to take the owner to court to actually get the money. Lastly, I am convinced, that the owner most likely believes he pays me and everyone else too much as opposed to too little. I have maintained a low level job search for the past year or so and other than a few interviews, there has not been much activity. I rarely see job postings for machine design or product design engineers.

In regards to my position, I pretty well do all of the new product design and development. I manage the projects (which is, in all fairness, mostly self-managment), design the new products, make all of the drawings for the components. Work with vendors to make the parts, lead design review meetings, create product manuals, train the production staff on how to assemble the new products, etc. The company I work for all makes a point to do custom one off products for patients with special needs, my supervisor handles most of these projects but I take on some of them as well. Currently, my most significant project is designing a new hospital bed that meets the latest standards. One of our vendors recently told me that every other hospital bed manufacturer has at least 3-5 engineers on a bed project; I am the only engineer working on this project. Im not saying that I believe I do the work of the 3-5 other engineers, its more probable that I am cutting corners if anything.

Anyway, what I dont know is if my story is more normal and just a reflection of a bad economy or if I am particularly hard up relative to others who graduated with engineering degrees in the past 5 or so years. Although, I believe a job is still better than no job, its hard for me to not feel exploited by this company given that they pay me at least $20k a year less than anyone else I know who has an engineering degree and is currently employed as an engineer. That all said, does anyone have an idea what a reasonable salary for the work I do would be? My work is relatively light on engineering calculations of any kind, but heavy on design creativity and solving difficult packaging problems (i.e. how to fit lots of features in small spaces that work for very very heavy people). I typically feel like I can do everything I need to do in 8 hours a day (or sometimes, much less). That is my main question for now. I will continue to crank out the best new products I can come up with for now, keep my eyes open for new oppurtunities, and also keep pursuing a graduate certificate and possibly masters degree (1 class at a time...paid out of pocket, of course). I would also appreciate any constructive advice for how to escape a dead end job and move forward. Particularly for someone who is not well connected and does not come from a family of college educated professionals.

 

[CivilEngineer401]

After 10 years, my experience has been similar to yours. I have worked at three companies and there has always been a reason to give very little if any raises. This was true during the “good times” as well. During the boom, my company gave a speech on how it was their most profitable year ever. I got an outstanding review so I was finally ready to see what a real raise was like. A whopping 3%. The next year it went back to zero.
After years of thinking about it, I have come to the conclusion that the companies I worked for were just not profitable. We bill out all of our time so have a rough idea on how much my company makes. As a company, we just didn’t charge that high of a rate per hour. Similarly, as an employee we didn’t charge that high of a rate to work for them. Maybe it’s a chicken and the egg scenario.
Think about how profitable your company is and how profitable you are for them. For example, I bill out at $60 per hour. It doesn’t matter whether I am the best employee in the world or the worst, the most I money I can make the company is $60 per hour times 40 hours per week times 52 weeks a year = $124,800 (excluding overtime for simplicity). Now think about a money manager on Wall Street. If they manage a 50 million dollar portfolio and their company gets a 1.5% management fee, they made their company $750,000.

 

[TenPenny]

The thing about billing out your time is that you only have at most 24 hours in a day.

 

[IRstuff]

for what it's worht, salary.com shows a median salary for ME II at about $70k, which is roughly $35/hr:

http://swz.salary.com/SalaryWizard/Mechanical-Engineer-II-Salary-Details.aspx

TTFN
faq731-376

 

[spongebob007]

Right out of college I went to work for a large defense contractor and I was making around $33K a year. This was in 1994!! You were exploited right out of school and six years later it's even worse. You need to find a new job ASAP.

 

[frv]

I agree withe everyone here. You are WAY underpaid. You should have split a long time ago. I understand that some jobs may have benefits that compensate for low pay, but there are limits.

 

[Pace82]

The opportunity to leave has not presented itself yet. I have been on maybe a half dozen interviews in the past year and a half, none lead to an offer. The mechanical engineering opportunites are predominately on the power engineering side. There are a few larger companies that primarily focus on power plant design. That is not my preference as far as work goes, but I would be willing to try it out. I simply have the problem of no directly relevant experience to deal with. In regards to positions where I do have direct relevant experience, I typically am a few years short of the desired experience, or the company uses Solidworks instead of Autodesk Inventor (even though I know switching different 3D CAD software packages would be relatively easy, it seems many companies will simply not hire someone who is not already using the same software they do). That all said, I believe Ive been the second or third candidate for some jobs that would have paid nearly double what my current position is (one in particulary, the interview went really well and then the company found someone internally for the position...go figure).

 

[Ron]

Hallelujah, zdas04!!

You are exactly right. The OP started at a low rate ($18/hr) and apparently does not understand that he should be viewed as a professional. If engineers accept such, it demeans the profession and allows employers to continue this bullsh!t.

To the OP....you are a professional. You have a degree as an engineer. It is an honorable profession that deserves the respect of the public and employers. You didn't major in basketweaving. You didn't pour your heart and soul into achieving a degree that doesn't mean something. It does. Treat yourself as a professional and project that to employers and potential employers.

Diligent, intelligent and self-motivated people who project confidence will excell in jobs without regard to degrees or other qualifications.

Get another job...this time project your profession for what it is. You are not simply an hourly worker. You are a degreed, mechanical engineer with 6 years of design experience. Go sell that....it is sellable.

 

[Bester2]

I do not mean to sound rude but to the OP, were you a terrible student? Do you live in the middle of nowhere or in some place with 20% unemployment? To even ask the question if you are being underpaid is comical. Of course you are being underpaid, you can go to any web site and put in your experience and see that you are being shafted. Why would you stay in a place like that?

I graduated in 2005 and made more than that right out of school in a very low paying area of the country and now make 95-105k a year depending on bonuses. Heck in my industry in you have a pulse and a degree you make 70k (Oil and Gas).

Now I will say one thing and it may not relate to you but I will point it out anyway. In my office all engineers get offices no matter how young they are. But we have one engineer than has been here longer than me (5 years) that is still in a cubical. He is very timid and shy. He does not present himself confidently and therefore is treated less than fairly. He is kept here because there is no reason to get rid of him but I am sure he is compensated way below his peers. In the end he is probably a better technical engineer than me. But I have risen in the company by learning how our systems work and volunteering to be the man that goes between engineering and corporate IT. If we had layoffs a lot of better engineers than me would be let go before I was because I have that one task that no one else has been trained in.

So the moral of my story is, get aggressive in a job search. Get into a new environment and find a niche that the other engineers do not want to do. Latch onto it and make some money. In the end that is what working is about, earning the maximum amount you can for your qualification while being able to live with the work you do.



SW 2007 SP 5.0

 

[Pace82]

What would you define to be a terrible student? My GPA was not wonderful, just a bit under 3.0. Although, I will say I had a particular professor for four classes who nearly gave all his students C's or D's, and another who did the same for two classes. Ive taken classes through another insitution in a grad level program that have been much easier (if nothing changes, I would expect I could get at least 3.75). The big hurdle Ive had with finding another job, besides there not being many open positions, is having the wrong skills or experience. Such as being passed over due to the company using 3D CAD software that I dont have any direct experience using, designing a type of product that I have no experience with, or process I dont have direct experience (such as injection molded parts whereas I have a lot of experience designing parts made of welded structrual steel). I have also been passed over for flat out being overqualified. So, to answer why I stay, first of all, a job is better than no job. Second of all, the experience I have simply does not match up to about any other ME position around. Which, yes, I submit applications for,and then typically do not hear anything back from. I am reasonably confident my resume is pretty solid too. Most jobs I come across have something on the job description that I either lack entirely or know the wrong thing (particularly in the case of software). If you have not tried to get a job since starting, its hard to explain. Maybe someone else can relate to all of this. Then again, for all I know everyone else can hop from designing medical equipment, to HVAC, and then helping design power plants, then to oil and gas, and then a defense comntractor, and so on without any problems.

 

[MadMango]

Even more reason to look for a new job. The longer you stay where you are, the more limited your experience and skill set will look to prospective employers. If my company built staplers I would hesitate to hire someone that only had experience at one company that made faucets for 10 years. However, there's nothing wrong with being an expert in your field either, so if you like what you are doing you will have to consider moving to where those types of jobs are located. It doesn't matter if you design forklifts, medical devices, or toasters, the design process is the same, CAD is just a tool, and every industry has the same problems. The skills you've learned over the past years should be transferable to any industry. Sell that.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."

Have you read faq731-376 to make the best use of these Forums?

 

[ajack1]

Whilst I do agree with the majority that you are on a very low salary for your experience and qualifications, I really cannot agree that you are being exploited.

I own a company and we hit the proverbial wall in year end 08, 09 saw a 50% drop in turnover and even more in profits and coupled with a couple of contracts we were doing for companies that went into administration very nearly saw us go under as well.

Things have improved but we have still not reached the turn over or profit margins we did back in 08, despite having to make cuts, lay people off, a pay freeze and no dividends for me personally. How people expect to be able to be given pay raises at or above inflation whilst operating under these conditions is beyond me.

The one thing that is very obvious to me is there are very much two types of company now, those that compete in a global market and those that don’t.

Looking back to 08 a 24” monitor cost around £380 you can now get them for about £120 and whilst this is an extreme example the same pretty much applies to most manufactured products.

On the flip side things like insurance, rates and utilities have all risen at about 6-8% per year. Basically they are not operating in a global market. I can go down the local supermarket and buy a, admittedly cheap and nasty, microwave for less money that it costs to park my car at the railway station for 2 hours, which simply cannot be right IMO.

It really doesn’t surprise me in the example given above that a gas fitter or plumber can make more money than a qualified engineer, I am not saying it is right, but again they are not competing in a global market.

The amount of money paid these days seems far more sector driven than qualification driven, again global or local market. If you want the big money change sectors, easier said than done admittedly, or else the same rule applies, everything is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.

 

[ScottyUK]

ajack1,

I agree with you that times are hard and have been for the past few years, especially in manufacturing, so big raises aren't on the cards for most companies. I think you're wrong in this case because six years ago things weren't so tough and the salary on offer then was little better than that expected for casual work. He was underpaid then and he's underpaid now. If the OP was on a reasonable salary then I agree that now is not the time to demand a raise, but he isn't on a reasonable salary for the work he appears to be doing and the experience he appears to have.

 

[WIstructural]

If you are having trouble finding a new job, I suggest reading Dan Miller's "48 days to the Work I Love". He goes through a step by step process on how to find the right job for you. It worked for me. Also, if you have gone on that many interviews in the last year, without an offer, maybe you have a flaw in your interview skills and a couple of sessions with an interview coach would pay off.

 

[zdas04]

Pace82,
I thought you were being exploited by a clueless company owner until I read your whine about two professors that only gave out C's and D's. I had those guys, got A's from both of them.

Re-reading all of your posts, I have to say that you act like you are happiest while being victimized. You really should stay exactly where you are at. You'll be happier in your mothers basement than you'll ever be if you move out of your home town and face the cold cruel world on your own.

I've changed industries three times. There are a large number of people on eng-tips.com who changed countries while changing industries and many of them went to countries where people worked in a language different from their native language. Going from AutoCAD to SolidWorks is a walk in the park compared to that.

"Overqualified" is code for "your skills have nothing to do with the job I need done and I don't want to pay to train you". Don't let it go to your head.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

"Belief" is the acceptance of an hypotheses in the absence of data.
"Prejudice" is having an opinion not supported by the preponderance of the data.
"Knowledge" is only found through the accumulation and analysis of data.

 

[fegenbush]

I had a professor and mentor who told the following story (details significantly changed):

I had a student who worked as my research assistant for two years doing finite element analysis of forged steel parts. When he graduated, he listed me as a reference on his resume. I received a call from a potential employer with whom he had interviewed that made soft drink fountain nozzles. The hiring manager said "Joe seems to have a lot of experience doing FEA for steel forgings, why should we consider him for these plastic pieces for soft drink fountains?" I told him that Joe doesn't have a lot of experience with FEA for steel forgings, he has a lot of experience SOLVING PROBLEMS. FEA for steel forgings was a problem I put in front of him, and he excelled with it. I have no doubts that he would excel in this position as well. Joe was hired for the job and did very well for the company.

Sorry for the long-winded response. The point is, Pace82, you need to sell your skills and anything less than that is selling yourself short. Problem solving, safe product design, electro-mechanical interface, and ergonomics are all skills that you have. If you want 3D experience, you can use some free software out there similar to sketchup. Best of luck to you.

 

[IRstuff]

Have you had anyone review your resume? Resume writing is only partly engineering/science and the remainder is an art, crafting the words and phrases to sell YOU. This is hard for most engineers, since we're used to telling facts and statistics. Your resume must be capable of saying, "This guy is smart, capable, works well with people, and is the RIGHT PERSON for this job"

HOWEVER, that said, do not fudge; if you've only been in the same cubicle as someone using MegaUberCAD, don't claim that you're "familiar" with it. You must have hands on experience before claiming having hands on experience. This is an easy gotcha that happens ALL THE TIME to people I've interviewed:
> "I see that you're familiar with XYZsoft; what did you use it for?" "Uh, actually I only watched someone use it" BZZZZZ


TTFN
faq731-376

 

[Pace82]

Yes, I have had a retired engineer who has had experience in hiring look over my resume. He did make a few good suggestions for improvements which I followed through with. My resume had been decent, but I believe it is good now. At least good enough that my resume will be more of a help to me rather than a hindrance. In regards to interviewing, I do try to sell my skills as well as I can. I say as well as I can because 'selling myself' is not second nature for me. I dont really have a particular sales pitch, so to speak, I mostly try to connect the experience that I have with the job that is being presented to me. I also make a point to be honest and not oversell myself, be honest about things that I either do not know or do not have direct experience with. Usually, Ill make the point that the experience I have is from learning and figuring things out. Someone suggested an interview coach, and that may actually really help. Yes, I do try to present myself well, but I am aware Im less than perfectly polished. I did get some interview feedback that I was not enthusiastic enough. Although, Im not sure how relevant that feedback is because I could not get myself excited about the position I was interviewing for.

I did see a few posts accusing me of whining, and generally suggesting that whining means I am getting what I deserve. In regards, to that...yes, I am whining. I am sharing my frustrations here (i.e. whining), my experience with this job, and job searching, has left me with some disillusionment that may not reflect reality. I only know a few other ME's and was wanting to get an idea how exactly my situation compared to others experience with their career. I did know it was bad, but did not for sure if is laughably worse or just a bit worse than some others. Granted this is far from a representative sample of all engineers (particularly ME's). On the upside, as terrible as the compensation is, I actually like what I do. I do like designing parts and machines, and solving the types of problems that work presents. My biggest complaint with work is that I wish it were actually more technically challanging. Part of, and probably a smaller part, of the issue I have is knowing another job is most likely not going to involve any design work, and if it does, probably not to the extent I get to do now.

 

[CivilTom]

Man I don't know what's worse... The wage or living with your parents at age 30. You should be making a lot more with your experience. Don't quit till you receive a offer confirmation In writing from another job! Keep looking! You can even draft for more then 18 jeeZ

 

[Pace82]

Im well aware...sadly, I suspect my supervisor does not make much more than $60k (if that) working 45-50 hour weeks. Pretty sure his job could be a six figure job elsewhere. This is also part of the problem why Im stuck at a terrible wage. My supervisor and a few others in the company are probably paid tens of thousands under market value. There is really no chance I would get bumped up to their level without them being bumped up first. Why everyone stays is another question, probably due to a mix of simply being comfortable and having a difficult time finding anything else. Generally, my experience will keep me from getting better paid drafting or design jobs. Not to mention, those seem like an overall step backwards. Which makes sense since those jobs would likely bore me, and I would for/under someone who is doing a job I could probably just as easily do on my own (once I got up to speed with the company and their product line). I have already missed out on a few jobs for this reason.

The company I work for has won a contract recently with a supplier of medical equipment. One that could double sales or better, if Im still around Ill finally find out for sure whether the company just does not have the revenue to pay employees appropriately or if the owners simply pay themselves first. My experience so far has me betting on the latter.

 

[jmcoope3]

When those sales double, you guys will probably get a pat on the back, or a free lunch, at-least a thumbs up from the owners/salesmen's new BMW. I seriously doubt you'll see any more money.

Jump ship, the company is top heavy (they wouldn't be open for six years if they weren't making any money). You didn't get into engineering to make a few business majors rich, and I don't believe that this degree dictates maintaining your "honor" and "Dedication" to an abusive company that pays you less than a manager at a fast food Restoration and would drop you in a heart beat.

It's a capitalist economy, look hard enough and you'll find someone willing to pay. Get selfish, everyone else is.