Porter ranch methane leak 8

[moon161]

The Aliso Canyon gas leak:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliso_Canyon_gas_leak

is a leak in a gas well connected to the sort of underground natural gas storage facility, which now is supposed to represent 1/4 of california's global warming footprint, and is sickening thousands in the nearby neighborhoods, not to mention the freaky infrared pictures of the methane plume

Apparently the self-regulated utility removed a shutoff valve decades ago

http://www.laweekly.com/news/what-went-wrong-at-porter-ranch-6405804

I think environmentally, this will make the VW scam look like peanuts.

 

[bimr]

Comparison to other gas emissions:

http://www.hcn.org/articles/slow-motion-methane-disaster-in-california

 

[VEBill]

From 'hcn' link: "Various studies show that when as little as 3 to 4 percent of the total natural gas produced is lost to leakage, it becomes worse for the climate than coal."

Data Point: They're re-opening an old coal mine at Donkin, Cape Breton, NS, Canada. The powers that be have explicitly stated that the 'fugitive emissions' of methane (from the COAL mine) will be equivalent to a million tonnes of CO2 per year. It's not clear which methane-to-CO2 equivalence ratio they're assuming, but it's tens of thousands of tonnes of methane emissions per year. Apparently on-going for as long as they mine coal.

Point being, methane emissions can occur even with COAL.

Hopefully those making the decisions of coal vs natural gas aren't ignoring the methane emissions from mining coal.

 

[Sparweb]

I don't think anyone on the NS coal mine project has really through through what they're proposing. The area is economically depressed, which puts pressure on local polititians to "do something". They don't often come up with original ideas under those circumstances.


STF

 

[zdas04]

I'd sure like to introduce some sense into this discussion, but I despair of anyone caring:
[ul]
[li]The gas released is primarily methane with a trace of mercaptan.[/li]
[li]The release rate is 1200 tonne/day (58 MMSCF/day)[/li]
[li]The Clean Air Act explicitly does not allow methane (or CO2 for that matter) to be classed as a pollutant because it is not a pollutant.[/li]
[li]The Santa Barbara seep has been estimated to release 60 MMSCF/day, and the recently discovered seep off the coast of BC and Alaska has been estimated at 600 MMSCF/day. Naturally occurring methane releases (both contemporary biogenic sources and leaking natural reservoirs of fossil methane) have been estmated at 500,000 tonnes/day--this leak is 0.2% of the total[/li]
[li]BTEX at the site of the leak is non-zero, but lower than the average BTEX measured at locations all over the LA Basin.[/li]
[li]No one's health has been adversely affected, and the people who have evacuated claiming a range of health impacts from migranes to cancers are all the same hypochondriacs who crawl out of the woodwork to jump on any bandwagon hoping for their 15 minutes of fame without have to submit to invasive probing by aliens[/li]
[li]From a business perspective, this leak will have a significant impact on the owner's 4th qtr 2015 profit, but will have no impact on the pollution in the LA Basin or the the world's climate.[/li]
[/ul]
In short, it is unfortunate that this industrial event has become a focus for hysteria and scare mongering, but it is anything but a "disaster"

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[MacGyverS2000]

z...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[JohnRBaker]

A question zdas04; the people who have evacuated their homes, were they forced out by authorities or did they leave under their own volition? And if they were forced to leave, what was the basis for this forced evacuation? Was it for purely health reasons or were there physical safety concerns as well?

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

JohnRBaker,
This has gotten very muddied over the last 4 months and I'm not sure that anyone knows, or that there is just one answer. There were people on TV the night that the leak was discovered saying "they were forced to leave their homes", but listening to those interviews I was never able to tell if they were forced by their own sense of caution or by the government (but it seemed too soon for coordinated government actions). It looks like some time later (again, the early stories are so conflicting that it is hard to put a time on it, the later stories are so coherent that they appear to be professionally stage managed, but foster more hysteria than information transfer) some government agency (don't know if it was state or local) suggested on TV that "anyone concerned for their family's health evacuate", but I am pretty certain that if police or National Guard had gone to their doors to force evacuation those actions would be on the Interwebz and I can't find any video or news stories.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[cranky108]

One dumb question: Why was gas in storage have mercaptan added? I was under the impression that the mercaptans were added at the interface with the distribution company.

 

[zdas04]

There are all sorts of storage. Storage for industrial use does not have the odorant (as I understand the field). Storage for retail is cheaper to put it in on injection rather than on withdrawal. SoCalGas has both kinds of use.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[Compositepro]

My mom lives in Porter Ranch and my level of concern is the same as Zdas04's. I used to ride my bike past those wells back in the 60's. My understanding is that the government is forcing the gas company to pay for alternate living accommodations for anyone in a certain area who asks for it. I would guess that local vacancies have pretty much filled-up. Many residents of Porter Ranch commute long distances to work. So I could see how some residents could be "evacuating" to far-off places that are actually much closer to their workplace.

 

[zdas04]

I just read a new story that says that the relief well is within 200 ft of the cratered well, so they should have started the plugging operation by the weekend. SoCalGas is saying that they will only pay those "dislocation payments" for 48 hours after the well has been confirmed to be plugged. One city councilman is going ballistic and wants a resolution to keep the people in temporary housing until "they are comfortable that their homes are safe". I'm betting that some of them won't "feel safe" until hell freezes over. Like New Orleans, still in temp housing at the 10th anniversary.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JohnRBaker]

The comment about New Orleans is totally disingenuous and uncalled-for. Unlike Porter Ranch, the vast majority of the people who are still displaced as a result of hurricane Katrina have NO homes to return to, period. They were either totally destroyed by the flooding or they were condemned shortly afterwards and demolished.

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

Really? Hurricane Katrina hit the Gulf coast in 2005. Eleven years ago. Gulfport, Mississippi was completely destroyed in the same storm. Nothing left that was safe to enter. The citizens of Gulfport rebuilt the town better than ever within a few years. To say

vast majority of the people who are still displaced as a result of hurricane Katrina have NO homes to return to, period. They were either totally destroyed by the flooding or they were condemned shortly afterwards and demolished.

has the undertone of "those people are incapable of starting over without someone else doing it for them". That is a vile concept. In 11 years an adult can and should be able to get on with their lives and stop being victims. I drove through both New Orleans and Gulfport in 2008 and Gulfport was "just a town" a pretty town, but not a disaster site. New Orleans was still a disaster site. I understand it still is. 11 years is not "cleaning up to move back", it is "this FEMA trailer is nice and when I trash it they'll give me another". 11 years later the FEMA trailers are still there, some folks are in their 4th trailer. New Orleans is not a model for self-sufficiency. The city of Porter Ranch is asking SoCalGas to be their FEMA. Terrible model for getting on fro a problem.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JohnRBaker]

Well let's not get all self-righteous here. After all, you're the one who injected the situation in New Orleans into the conversation, NOT ME!!!!!

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

JohnRBaker,
In 36 years of doing engineering work I have never once used an exclamation point. Not once. I'm kind of proud of that.

I don't know what I said that can be taken as "self-righteous". I was just including an example like I prefer to do to make my points more memorable. And then I was defending that reference against a charge of being disingenuous and un-called for. Sorry if that reference caused you to drag the conversation into the weeds.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[JohnRBaker]

Well, when you get to 50 years (at least it will be for me this coming June) in engineering, perhaps you'll cherish the idea of using a bit of punctuation once in a while

John R. Baker, P.E.
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.

 

[zdas04]

Fair enough.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[cranky108]

Points taken, there are lifelong victims, and those who support them. Lets move on.

A similar thing happened in Hutchison Kansas many years ago, except they had several building destroyed by fire. And no mercaptans had been added.
The fires were several miles from the leakinging storage facility.

However in Kansas the cause was over pressure of the salt formation.

 

[Compositepro]

I wonder if this leak would even have made the news if the gas had not been odorized. Even as it is, it took a very long time to make the news.