Naval Fuel tank leak in Hawaii 7

[Alistair_Heaton]

If they are as bad as some of the UK bunkers I don't blame the locals wanting them empty.

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/...-to-drain-fuel-tanks-that-contaminated-water/

 

[1503-44]

Yeah. I was just quoting the article.
-
Personally I like all of my in-toxicants with just 0.5ml of water , but benzene isn't good to drink with or without adultrents. That's everybody's problem.

 

[TugboatEng]

Where are the gasoline and diesel products coming from? Shouldn't the Navy only be storing JP5?

 

[1503-44]

They may use diesel fueled trucks to get the JP to the planes and have emergency generators and diesel driven pumps, gasoline fueled cars, fork lifts, light vehicles, motor boats, launches, oil for heating and cooking at the office buildings, barracks and mess facilities, not to mention 100s of lube oils. They teach carrier landings on land first. Not everything they have floats and runs with nuclear. Not to mention they may be called upon to transport various fuels to other bases, operational areas, or amphibious landing zones. The DOD sites I've worked on, JP was the smallest quantity of all fuels stored. Partly that was because they didn't want to store it as long as the others. A high turnover rate is convenient for QC purposes.

https://www.navylookout.com/fuelling-the-fleet-the-network-that-supplies-oil-to-the-royal-navy/

 

[TugboatEng]

The US Navy runs exclusively JP5, no other fuels whatsoever.

I just find it funny that they use the descriptions diesel like and gasoline like when there really should be no question as to what the fuel is.

 

[JohnRBaker]

So the Navy owns NO trucks, staff cars, fire engines, etc, or are you telling us that they've converted all of these to run on JP5? And you'd think, considering your claimed employment, you'd know what sort of fuel they use on Navy tugs, or are you suggesting that they run on JP5 as well?

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[1503-44]

The Army’s Surface Deployment and Distribution Command handles fuel movement by pipeline or rail within the United States and by a variety of means overseas. Because of their locations, most of PACAF’s fuel (and a lot of AFCENT’s) is transported to the host countries under authority of the Navy’s Military Sealift Command. MSC owns three large tanker ships, which can carry 238,400 barrels of fuel each, and charters a shallow draft 36,000-barrel tanker that is used to move fuel intratheater for Japan and South Korea.

All of these ships are crewed by US merchant seamen. MSC also can hire US-flagged vessels to meet the military’s needs.

In PACAF, the fuel goes to 10 major bases in South Korea, Japan, Guam, Wake Island, Hawaii, and Alaska, plus four smaller South Korean facilities and 15 remote Alaskan radar sites. MSgt. Joel Brown, PACAF fuels operations superintendent, said Guam is the command’s largest fuel account, since it is a vital trans-Pacific refueling stop and a heavily used staging base. On average, Andersen AFB, Guam, issues more than 50 million gallons of jet fuel annually, but can store up to 66 million gallons, Brown said.

AFCENT supports 14 bases in eight countries, Murphy said. Those bases include well-equipped facilities in Iraq, Kuwait, and other Persian Gulf countries; large bases at Balad in Iraq and Kandahar and Bagram in Afghanistan; and some small, austere locations throughout that country. The command also supports the US operations at Manas in Kyrgyzstan, a key supply waypoint and air tanker base.

Although the primary fuel used by both commands is JP-8 for fixed wing aircraft and helicopters, they also require [highlight #FCE94F] significant quantities of diesel for ground vehicles and generators, and small amounts of standard automotive motor gasoline (Mogas) for a limited number of vehicles. AFCENT also requires aviation gasoline (Avgas) for some of the smaller remotely piloted aircraft operating in theater. PACAF issues more than 285 million gallons of jet fuel annually, about 40 million gallons of diesel, and about two million gallons of Mogas, Ludwigsen said.

[/highlight]

https://www.airforcemag.com/article/0910gas/

 

[TugboatEng]

1503, we're specifically talking US Navy here, they burn different fuels than Air Force.


In recent history the Navy has "stored" two fuels, F-76 and JP-5.

"This research investigates the feasibility, benefits, impacts and costs of replacing F-76 with JP-5 and adopting JP-5 as the single "universal fuel at sea". Joint Publication 4-03, Joint Bulk Petroleum Doctrine states, "Department of Defense components should minimize the number of bulk petroleum products that must be stocked and distributed". DoD currently stores and distributes two fuels, F-76 and JP-5, for shipboard use. As the universal fuel at sea JP-5 would replace F-76. All shipboard systems, including boilers, turbine engines and diesel engines that currently operate with F-76 should operate satisfactorily with JP-5. Adopting JP-5 as the single fuel stocked and distributed for shipboard use would simplify logistics support, maximize flexibility, and enhance the readiness and sustainability of U.S. forces at sea."

This is from a thesis 20 years ago but I'm fairly certain that the US Navy has adopted JP-5 as a universal fuel.

 

[Spartan5]

I just find it funny that they use the descriptions diesel like and gasoline like when there really should be no question as to what the fuel is.

It’s because those are standardized assays. The DOH probably doesn’t have a TDH-[sub]JP5[/sub].

Maybe they should. But it seems pretty academic, doesn’t it?

Seems like a non-sequitur when we should be talking about how the tank shouldn’t leak, regardless.

A petroleum hydrocarbon mixture may contain several hundreds of individual sub- stances varying according to the original source of oil, distillation fraction, type of emission, and weathering of the mixture in the environment. Therefore, due to the com- plexity of mixtures covered by term "total petroleum hydrocarbons" it is quite understandable that two different methods measuring "oil" will always give different results at least for some samples. However, it is difficult to find other ways to define oil in other ways as by an analytical determination. Rather than having one possibly less robust method covering all possible definitions, a set of methods used alone or in combinations allows determinations related to the relevant environmental standards in each case [43].

Compared to present methods offering a possibility to determine separate hydrocarbon fractions and toxicologically most relevant individual substances, the old infrared spec- trometric method had various restrictions. The general trend is to base the risk assess- ment on determination of various oil fractions and specific contaminants posing hazards (like the BTEXN, PAHs, oxygenated gasoline additives and specified aromatic and ali- phatic fractions) – not on one index not necessarily determining more than one type of substances in the hydrocarbon mixture.

In other words, the extraction rate, detector response, and losses during the determina- tion of individual substances present in total petroleum hydrocarbons may vary method by method, and mixture by mixture. Instead of measuring a general hydrocarbon index by IR or other detection method, present detection equipment allow further analysis of TPH constituents needed to assess the real environmental behaviour and toxicological properties of a TPH contamination.

 

[TugboatEng]

I get that and different components of the fuel penetrate the ground differently so whatever ends up in the water will longer meet the definition of JP5.

 

[Spartan5]

To settle splitting the hairs of potential hazards and contamination (past and present):

What Are the Chemicals of Concern?

The Red Hill Facility currently stores and dispenses three types of petroleum fuel - marine diesel for ships and two types of jet fuel, JP-5 and JP-8. Historically the facility also stored Navy Special Fuel Oil, Navy distillate, motor gasoline and aviation gasoline.

Based on the current fuel stored at the facility, the chemicals of most concern are referred to as middle distillates. Middle distillates include total petroleum hydrocarbons (TPH), benzene, toluene, ethylbenzene, xylenes, naphthalene, and methylnaphthalenes. More information can be found in Section 9.3 of the Hawaii Department of Health Hazard Evaluation and Emergency Response Technical Guidance Manual.

 

[zeusfaber]

I'm fairly certain that the US Navy has adopted JP-5 as a universal fuel.

They've been talking about it for years, but I don't think it's happened yet. The RN still burns primarily F-76 (AVCAT availability at overseas commercial ports being poor at best) and, in the USN, postgrad students were still salivating over what an attractive idea it would be to move to a JP-5 Single Fuel Concept as recently as 18 months ago.

If it finally happens, I imagine the USN will go first - US forces seem to have much more of a culture than their allies of avoiding reliance on Host Nation Support.

A.

 

[1503-44]

I thought we were talking about what the US Navy might be storing-transporting for themselves and perhaps others. What they burn is not the issue and Sparten is correct, there's a wide blend that includes significant hazardous components across the continuous range of specific gravities making up them all. All the JPs are basically the same, except for their various additives and Jbase is sometimes almost gasoline and sometimes almost diesel. If its not lite enough to be JP yet, we blend in more gasoline until it is. Too lite, add diesel. The rest of the spec is storage, handling, contaminate related more to quality control issues rather than its specific gravity.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

All of the different "flavours" of mil fuel that have been talked about.

I would say none of them you would want to wash in or drink.

I must admit though I never really understood the difference between kerosene and diesel.

I know the turbine fuels don't have lubricants in them. But pretty sure that doesn't make them anymore digestible.

 

[1503-44]

Distilling what comes out of a gas/oil well results in various proportions of hydrocarbon compounds.
The number of C atoms making up the basically straight chains is the most prominate chemical difference. Specific gravity and boiling point (vapour pressures) are the most prominate physical differences.

Specific gravity ranges from napthas at roughly 0.5 (water=1.0), gasoline 0.65, kerosene 0.8
Diesels SG = 0.89 to 0.95
Gas oils 0.815 to 0.89 (Benzene 0.88 0.9)
Crude oil 35.6o API SG = 0.847
Crude oil 40o API SG = 0.825
Kerosene (Max) SG = 0.82
Jet fuel SG = 0.82
Jet A, Jet A-1 SG = 0.815
Crude oil 40o API SG = 0.805
Crude oil 48o API SG = 0.79
Kerosene (Min) SG = 0.78
Typical Jet B: SG = 0.764
Crude oil 48o API SG = 0.76
Gasoline a 0.74
Gasoline b 0.72
Gasoline c 0.68
Decane-n 0.73
Heptane-n 0.688
Hexane-n 0.664

to SG = 1+ at the bottom of the distilling column (heavy oils, asphalt and bitumens)
with boiling points as indicated.

https://www.petroleumrefine.com/the-crude-oil-fractional-distillation/

]

 

[LittleInch]

Another key difference is flash point / ignition point.

Gasoline is very low - basically evaporates / flashes at room temp or below - rather volatile and has a distinct smell and feels quite "dry"

Kerosene is higher - 50-80C, but low enough that you can light it with a match easily, hence used in lights, heaters etc and stoves, but needs bit of heat to make it flammable. Volatility varies, but higher than gasoline. Starts to feel a little bit "oily" and won't vapourise readily if spilled

Diesel is higher still - 120 upwards and is very difficult to light with a match or small energy source. Definite feel of oil / lubrication and hard to vapourise.

But as note din many sources, something like JP4 is a mixture of many of these components of distillation and is built to a set of specifications for SG, colour, smell, flash point, water content, etc and hence being filtered through the ground, any of them could filter out one aspect more than the other.

Being a shore facility, I'm pretty sure in one or two tanks they store or stored gasoline and diesel for other vehicles. you could probably run a diesel engined vehicle on JP5, but I wouldn't like to put it in my petrol engined car...



Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The only time I ever saw kerosene was in the army. We used it in the cook burners and puffing Billy's.

We could run the Bedford 4 tonners on it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

My father told me stories about how back when he was a teen during the depression he had a Model A Ford and he would put just enough gas in it to get it started and once it warmed-up, you could then put kerosene in the tank and it would still run. He lived in Monroe, Michigan, and he and his buddies would drive down to Toledo, Ohio (in those days Toledo was a 'hot town' with a lower drinking age and other 'adult' attractions) and to save money they'd use kerosene instead of gas. Start it on gas, then put just enough kerosene in the tank to get to Toledo. Then later, put gas back in the tank from a gas can they brought with them, start it up, then pour in enough kerosene, from another can, to get back home. Not sure how much money they saved, but apparently it was enough that they'd have a few extra bucks for while they were in Toledo.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

We only used it with the cooks to keep the medics work load down.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1oaliIduDpQ

Those water heats were lethal.

 

[TugboatEng]

As part of the Navy's conversion to a universal fuel they did something similar with their P-250 dewatering pumps. Originally a gasoline fueled 2-stroke they were converted to run on F-76/JP-5 but required a propane canister to get them started initially.

 

[1503-44]

FYI